Karvier
Karvier OP t1_j06yur8 wrote
Reply to comment by utah_teapot in I have translated some letters between the khans of Mongolian and Manchus recorded in the Manchus literary sources, pretty funny how they were roasting each other. by Karvier
As for your other question I believe you could read these letters again then you’ll figure it out yourself.
Karvier OP t1_j06yqcp wrote
Reply to comment by utah_teapot in I have translated some letters between the khans of Mongolian and Manchus recorded in the Manchus literary sources, pretty funny how they were roasting each other. by Karvier
These letters were recorded in literary sources written in Manchu language (not necessarily meant they were originally written in this language though ). The Manchus were using Manchu alphabet (a variant of Mongolian alphabet) by that time.
Karvier OP t1_j067dw6 wrote
Reply to comment by KilgoreTroutPfc in I have translated some letters between the khans of Mongolian and Manchus recorded in the Manchus literary sources, pretty funny how they were roasting each other. by Karvier
Yes, the usage of the gun in warfares was already largely adopted worldwide by that time.
Karvier OP t1_j05tmxu wrote
Reply to I have translated some letters between the khans of Mongolian and Manchus recorded in the Manchus literary sources, pretty funny how they were roasting each other. by Karvier
By the way, in Manchu language the word Juxen means pleb, low class people. But somehow other nations thought this was the name of Manchus people, thus Manchus were called by outsiders as Jurchen for a long time. And I think Ligdan khan was unaware of the real meaning of this word, so by calling Nurhaci “the ruler of 3 tumen juxen” he unintentionally hurt Nurhaci’s feeling (which was pretty funny)😂.
Karvier OP t1_j0577ms wrote
Reply to comment by Iceberg__Slim in I have translated some letters between the khans of Mongolian and Manchus recorded in the Manchus literary sources, pretty funny how they were roasting each other. by Karvier
You are welcome! Do you have any thoughts about these exchanges of letters between the khans if I may ask? They were rather colloquial I would say.
Karvier OP t1_j055jun wrote
Reply to comment by Yay_for_Pickles in I have translated some letters between the khans of Mongolian and Manchus recorded in the Manchus literary sources, pretty funny how they were roasting each other. by Karvier
You mean you read this when you were a middle schooler?That would be cool.
Karvier OP t1_j04bmd3 wrote
Reply to comment by Khwarezm in I have translated some letters between the khans of Mongolian and Manchus recorded in the Manchus literary sources, pretty funny how they were roasting each other. by Karvier
Happened between 1620-1621, five years after Nurhaci became the khan of his people.
Karvier OP t1_j02e4jq wrote
Reply to I have translated some letters between the khans of Mongolian and Manchus recorded in the Manchus literary sources, pretty funny how they were roasting each other. by Karvier
Btw: I have to cut irrelevant parts from the Manchus’ reply to make it fit the post, that letter was so lengthy!
Karvier OP t1_izwq49r wrote
Reply to comment by HisKoR in My own English translation of the Manchu literary source about the Battle of Sarhv, a battle between a Chinese-Mongolian-Korean joint force and Manchus horde./Mini beye hergenleme Manju gisun suduri de Sarhv daini Ingri gisun ubaliyambure, Nikasi Monggoso Korise i cooha dainde Manju gurunbe afanuha. by Karvier
The more manpower you have, the more likely you will consider them as cannon fodders. For example, the Manchus conducted a census at 1649, and there were only 55330 adult males(yes) found from the entire Manchus population. So they would certainly care more about the qualities of their soldier’s equipments, otherwise they as a people won’t last very long.
Karvier OP t1_izwoopp wrote
Reply to comment by HisKoR in My own English translation of the Manchu literary source about the Battle of Sarhv, a battle between a Chinese-Mongolian-Korean joint force and Manchus horde./Mini beye hergenleme Manju gisun suduri de Sarhv daini Ingri gisun ubaliyambure, Nikasi Monggoso Korise i cooha dainde Manju gurunbe afanuha. by Karvier
I think these records about ill-equipped Chinese army could only be found in Manchu literary sources though. Contemporary Chinese and later Manchu sponsored Chinese literary sources have seemingly omitted these anecdotes.
Karvier OP t1_izwmd4s wrote
Reply to comment by 141292 in My own English translation of the Manchu literary source about the Battle of Sarhv, a battle between a Chinese-Mongolian-Korean joint force and Manchus horde./Mini beye hergenleme Manju gisun suduri de Sarhv daini Ingri gisun ubaliyambure, Nikasi Monggoso Korise i cooha dainde Manju gurunbe afanuha. by Karvier
Well, apparently during this battle the guns of Chinese could not work properly for some reason, their artillery couldn’t even make any sounds. Perceived that, the Manchu khan decided to charge directly to the the Chinese line and they were wiped out very quickly and easily since they had neither functioning weapons nor armours.
Karvier OP t1_izwl51p wrote
Reply to comment by 141292 in My own English translation of the Manchu literary source about the Battle of Sarhv, a battle between a Chinese-Mongolian-Korean joint force and Manchus horde./Mini beye hergenleme Manju gisun suduri de Sarhv daini Ingri gisun ubaliyambure, Nikasi Monggoso Korise i cooha dainde Manju gurunbe afanuha. by Karvier
Well it appeared to me that even the Manchus themselves were quite shocked when they discovered how bad those Chinese soldiers’ weapons were, you don’t usually see your enemies armed with bamboo spears, it’s almost hilarious.
Karvier OP t1_izw5999 wrote
Reply to My own English translation of the Manchu literary source about the Battle of Sarhv, a battle between a Chinese-Mongolian-Korean joint force and Manchus horde./Mini beye hergenleme Manju gisun suduri de Sarhv daini Ingri gisun ubaliyambure, Nikasi Monggoso Korise i cooha dainde Manju gurunbe afanuha. by Karvier
- The previously mentioned forces led by Sir Hvrhan and Taiji Amin were hiding in the wilderness up until now, they saw the Chinese army enter the valley of Abudala. So they set up an ambush there around the mouth of the valley, the defeated Chinese troops chased by the crown prince then fell into it and were all annihilated, their commander lieutenant general Ting Lu included. Then the troops of Sir Hvrhan and Taiji Amin joined with the main force led by the crown prince in Varkash.
They found there was a Chinese-Korean joint force stationed in Fuca. The crown prince said:” Quickly, let our soldiers eat some musi(meaning cooked noodles in manchu) and our horses drink some water.” Then our army went to battle again, these enemies, however, were ill-equipped. The Chinese were all using bamboo spears and wearing wooden or bull-skin armour while all the Koreans wore armour made of paper. They were about 20k in number and they deployed guns in the wilderness south of Fuca, but their guns were also of very poor quality, they could not even make any firing noise with them. So we went against them and all of a sudden the direction of the wind changed, it started to blow toward our enemies. So we charged toward them with the cover of dust and smoke, and we shot and killed every single one of them in less than 15 minutes, even before the dust settled.
There was another Korean regiment stationed on the mountain Goryeo in the Fulgiyan at that time. They were utterly scared after they saw their 20k-strong allies were annihilated in less than 15 minutes. They gathered together and said:” there would be no other outcome except certain death if we carry on the fight, we need to go and surrender to these barbarians, even if they chose to kill all the POWs later, we’ll at least get a bloodless death(I am not sure what do they mean by saying this)”
So they decided to put down their banner and send a certain man with their military standard to our camp, that man said:” This is not our war, we are only participating in this war to return the favour to China because they helped us a lot during the Japanese invasion, at that time our land and city were all taken by the Japanese and we won't be able to survive without the helping hand of them. But now you have killed every single person of our joint force in less than 15 minutes, and our remaining troops on the mountain Goryeo were all Koreans except one Chinese Brigadier general and his followers. We will give them to you if you accept our surrender.” The crown prince said to other princes:” we could either accept their surrender or kill them all, but I heard that forgiveness brought more fame than cruelty, so I think it would be better to accept their surrender.” After a discussion between princes and ministers, the crown prince said to the Korean messenger:” you should ask your commander to come to talk to me, so you can prove your sincerity. Otherwise, I won't trust you and will order my troops to go kill every single one of your comrades.”
The commander of the Koreans replied as such:” I am trying to pacify my troops, there might be some potential unrest if I left the army now. I will send my vice commanders to your camp and stay there as a hostage. Tomorrow I will lead all the other troops to your camp.” Then he sent two high-ranked officers with all the Chinese in chains to our camp, and the Chinese Brigadier general hung himself. Then the vice commanders met the crown prince, the prince saluted these two and held a feast to celebrate. The next day, which is the fifth day of the month, the Korean commander Gang Hongrip led 5k Koreans to our camp, and the crown prince received him in the same manner. Thus in this single battle, we killed nearly 50k Chinese-Korean joint force and took 5k POWs.
The next day the crown prince sent the POWs to Hetu Alah to perform prostration in front of the Khan while he himself camping on the battlefield for another 3 days to collect population, horses and equipments. On the same night, two houses in the capital city caught fire, the Khan said:” it would be better if it rains a bit! There would be nothing left if the entire city caught fire! Though only 2 houses were on fire, it could spread out!” Then he ordered everyone to remove the combustibles from the roof of their houses. When General Yang, the commander of the entire armed force, heard that 3 out of the 4 deployed armies were destroyed, he immediately ordered the remaining one to retreat. Seeing this, 20 soldiers of our garrison decided to do something funny. They stood on the mountaintop, yelled at the retreating Chinese army, tied their hats on their bows and waved it backwardly, pretending there was lots of reinforcement coming. The retreating Chinese troops were scared by this and they started to run away unorganizedly, then these braves attacked their rear, killed 40 of them and took 50 pieces of weapons. There were around 1000 horses killed during the rout.
Karvier OP t1_izw57y0 wrote
Reply to My own English translation of the Manchu literary source about the Battle of Sarhv, a battle between a Chinese-Mongolian-Korean joint force and Manchus horde./Mini beye hergenleme Manju gisun suduri de Sarhv daini Ingri gisun ubaliyambure, Nikasi Monggoso Korise i cooha dainde Manju gurunbe afanuha. by Karvier
- At 4:00 pm on the same day, our army went camping in Gurbon. There was a certain man who came from Hetu Alah, the capital city reported:” we found a Chinese-Mongolian joint force marching from south Donge toward our capital. ”The khan said:” Let sir Hvrhan head there with 1000 troops for now, and my sons shall lead the main force to go fight with them tomorrow. ” The next day, Taiji Amin led another 2000 troops to Donge, while the Khan and crown prince went to Jaxehexen to perform sacrifices to the goddesses, thanking them for helping our army overcome the Chinese. Eight bulls were sacrificed on the battlefield.
The Crown prince then said to the Khan:” I would like to go to gather some intelligence, I will be with my 20 companions and we will disguise ourselves as locals. My father, you can come later after the completion of the ritual.” The khan praised the saying of the Prince, and then the crown prince and prince Manggvltai left the site. Taiji Hong the fourth prince said to the Khan:” I heard my brother has gone away. I'd like to go with him.” The Khan told him:” Your brother went to gather some intelligence, we’ll go meet them together later. ” Taiji Hong then said:” Why would I stay behind if my brother had gone for glory?” So he went away as well. The crown prince left at 1:00 pm on the 3rd day of the month and reached Hetu alah at 5:00 pm on the same day. The ladies and daughters of the Khan gathered around him as soon as he entered the office, they asked him:” Now we heard there is another enemy army targeting the capital, do we have any plans? ” The crown prince said: “we have already annihilated the enemy forces on the western front and we will also handle this other division properly, we just need some time. I will personally lead the army to fight them if my father, the khan, gives out the order.” He then returned and stayed in Datoon waiting for the Khan.
After completing the ritual, the khan led the main army back and reached the capital in 12 hours at 3:00 am. Then in the morning, the crown prince and the second prince led all the armoured troops to go searching for the Chinese force in Donge while the khan himself stayed in the capital with 4000 troops to prevent potential Mongolian raids. The crown prince rode for 3 days, on the fourth day he reached the forest of Gaha, the horse moved slower in these woods. At 9:00 am, they encountered 20k Elite Chinese forces right after they passed Varkash. Seeing the enemy sent less than 10k troops as spearheads, the crown prince went against them. The Chinese were defeated and retreated to Abudala Mountain.
The crown prince planned to lead the force to occupy the peak of Abudala, so our forces would have the high ground. Taiji Hong said:” My brother, as the commander it's better for you to lead the main force, I will go occupy the mountain top then the enemy will be flanked by us.” The crown prince agreed with him and said:” good idea, we will act in this way: I will lead the forces to move to the west while you go charge to the mountaintop with the ring wing. But you have to listen to me, do not charge into enemies by yourself and your companions, you are a general, not a soldier. Okay?” Taiji Hong then charged into the enemies by himself with 30 of his companions to paralyze the foes so they could not fire their guns properly. But these soldiers were very determined and the fourth prince could not defeat them even with the help of the other banners of the ring wing. So the crown prince launched an attack from the west side with the banners of the left wing and the Chinese finally started to retreat toward Varkash while we chased after them.
Karvier OP t1_izw56wh wrote
Reply to My own English translation of the Manchu literary source about the Battle of Sarhv, a battle between a Chinese-Mongolian-Korean joint force and Manchus horde./Mini beye hergenleme Manju gisun suduri de Sarhv daini Ingri gisun ubaliyambure, Nikasi Monggoso Korise i cooha dainde Manju gurunbe afanuha. by Karvier
- At that time, the Chinese deployed artillery guns and batteries on Sarhv Mountain. Our Five Banners attacked the mountaintop bravely and annihilated them in a short while. They then immediately crossed the river, our troops on the Girin Mountain also started to attack Jaxehexen, and the two banners of the right wing also outflanked them from the south side, we fought with muskets and bows and defeated them in less than two hours. Then we chased them to the top of Gurcin Mountain. It was already dark then, so our soldiers surrounded the mountain and killed those Chinese who tried to break out from the encirclement. The Sure Khan spent the night on Mount Bagrada and the crown Prince on Mount Hark. The other princes and ministers were camping along the Tum River. They saw a large group of Chinese troops forming formations between the south of Xanggxan Mountain and the north of Gurcin Mountain, and those foes were beating gongs and drums. So a report was sent to the Crown prince, he said: "Don't reveal yourself, just keep observing in secret and I shall head there tomorrow."
The next day, the Crown prince led the army there and the Chinese immediately retreated into the triple trench they had dug in the night. They formed a phalanx formation, and deployed cavalry outside the trench, with a row of guns in front of them and three rows of heavy guns behind. In the west, there was yet another 10k-strong Chinese division stationed on Furfen Mountain, three miles away from Xanggxan Mountain. The Crown prince then sent three envoys to the Khan one after another. At that time, the Khan was in the wilderness of Olyvome. He found there were 10k Chinese marching with guns, chariots and rattan plates. He then led less than a thousand elite bannermen to attack them. The Chinese immediately retreated into the trenches to defend themselves. The Khan then dismounted and attacked the trench with half of his men, but the guns of the Chinese were of poor quality, they tried to fire them but it won't work. Perceiving this, our army then attacked together, overturned their chariots, and killed all the 10,000 Chinese troops.
During the withdrawal, the Khan received those envoys from the crown prince, so Sure Khan rode forward to the prince without waiting for others. Arriving at high noon, the Khan said: "Our army must take Gurcin Mountain first, then attack from the high ground to win." When the elite bannermen were about to launch an attack on the mountain they saw Chinese soldiers on the ground starting to come out of the trench, the Khan then said: "This is it, they are going to fight us. Withdrawal my previous order, we must dismount quickly and fight them." The crown prince asked a certain man to inform two banners of the left wing to dismount. But the Chinese force was approaching and there were only 50-60 of our men who had dismounted, the crown prince thus said to Khan: "Khan my Father, the critical moment has come. I will lead an attack on the Chinese right now. ” So he rushed into the enemy’s formation on horseback and wiped out the vanguard of the Chinese. Seeing the approaching Chinese army, the other six banners did not have time to form a wedge formation. The one who rode fast led the charge and those who were slow followed them like they were hunting some beasts. Immediately after they reached the front they rushed in, disregarded the guns and artillery of the Chinese, and the enemies retreated. We chased them into the wilderness of Xanggxan Mountain, forcing them to throw themselves into the river or fall into the swamp, thus killing many enemies. Then we chased down the other fleeing enemies. Some of them fled to the mountains. We encircled them and then we sent half of our soldiers to kill them all.
After this victory, we turned back to attack the 10k Chinese division on Furfen Mountain. Half of our army were ordered to dismount, among them those who wore heavy armour charged into the enemy line with spears and broadswords in their hand, the lightly armoured troops shot arrows from behind. The other half of the men stayed in the rear on their horses. That was how we attacked the mountain, the Chinese army stood on their ground. They defended themselves with their shields and fired guns at us, but like before these guns could not harm our soldiers. We then launched a devastating blow and killed all these 10k Chinese troops before 3:00 pm.
Karvier OP t1_j071owc wrote
Reply to comment by utah_teapot in I have translated some letters between the khans of Mongolian and Manchus recorded in the Manchus literary sources, pretty funny how they were roasting each other. by Karvier
If you wanted to know how to say “China” in Manchu language then it could either be Nikan(it means the China as a country or it could also mean a single Chinese person) or Nikasi(It means the Chinese people or it could be used as a plural form of Nikan)