Submitted by Smithy2232 t3_zxpqwt in worldnews
mikeymumbelz t1_j22ymqw wrote
Reply to comment by [deleted] in Netanyahu set to retake power at head of far-right government by Smithy2232
Israel is the product of conflict of the worst kind.
It's a state founded by refugees who saw and suffered some of the worst atrocities in humanity. It's a state which has been routinely threatened and attacked by its neighbors. It's a state which is constantly being told it has to validate its own existence and the defense of its own people while the rest of the world takes that for granted.
It's easy to brand the entire country as "a bunch of fascists" but the reality is Israel doesn't exist in a vacuum. The state was molded by the actions of the world as a whole.
Had Israel's neighbors had the mentality of Finland or Sweden, they would have turned out more like Finland or Sweden.
I_Am_Become_Dream t1_j23dsqq wrote
It’s a state founded with the ethnic cleansing of the non-Jewish native population.
mikeymumbelz t1_j23e7hb wrote
The State of Israel is the RESULT of ethnic cleansing.
I'm asking you this genuinely. Where did you think the Jews were going to go after the Arab/Muslim world kicked them out?
The end result of that was obvious. They left Iraq, they left Lebanon, they left Syria, they left Egypt, they left Jordan, they left all of these countries with no citizenship anywhere else so they all collected in the State of Israel.
A state where they knew they'd be safe because they made up the population.
I_Am_Become_Dream t1_j23iicq wrote
This is ridiculous. The expelling of Jews from Arab countries, while terrible, happened after the establishment of Israel and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. You can’t a posteriori justify ethnic cleansing. You can’t justify ethnic cleansing period.
mikeymumbelz t1_j23j1tv wrote
So you're saying "revenge based" ethnic cleansings are acceptable? Because that's a pretty fucked position to take if you're being serious.
If you're saying it's acceptable to target Jews who have nothing to do with Israel over the things that Israel does or did, you're validating the argument about anti-zionism being rooted in antisemitism.
As to your point:
The original ethnic cleansings that occurred in Israel were two-fold.
The first was the Jordanians telling the Palestinians to get out and promising them they could return once the war had been won. The Palestinians left but the Jordanians (and the rest of the Arab forces) lost the war.
The second was the original conflict between the Arabs and Jews living in Mandatory Palestine.
When the British endorsed the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Mandatory Palestine and when the UN endorsed the partition plan to end the conflict, the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected it.
You can't start a war, get pushed out by the conflict, then claim that you are the victim because you tried to kill off an entire ethnic group and lost.
That doesn't work.
dzhastin t1_j22zqhd wrote
It’s also the product of having an enormous number of immigrants from the ex-Soviet Union. No offense to Russians, but they’re not exactly known for their appreciation of civil society and democratic values.
mikeymumbelz t1_j231dak wrote
Soviet citizens only really started making Aliyah back during the 1970s. Even then, it was extremely limited as the bulk didn't start going until 1991.
The fact of the matter is the bulk of soviet Jews came after the USSR fell. This was long after various wars and policies had already been in place.
>No offense to Russians, but they’re not exactly known for their appreciation of civil society and democratic values.
That's kind of a weird statement to make considering they didn't vote for their leadership. The USSR was a totalitarian super-state. You either went along with the party line or you got sent to the gulag.
People didn't vote Stalin or the others into power. They came to power through brute force and held that power through the same brute force.
Blaming Russians for the circumstances of the government they were born into is nonsense.
dzhastin t1_j235op0 wrote
Nobody’s blaming anybody for anything, but you can’t deny that people coming from an authoritarian environment with no concept of civil society might have different values. The way that Israel has rapidly lurched to the right since after the Russians started coming en masse can’t be an entire coincidence can it?
mikeymumbelz t1_j237aqg wrote
You can't deny that decades of conflict targeting Israel doesn't impact mindsets.
They're a refugee state which is founded by people who escaped war and came to a country which was under perpetual conflict for much of its existence.
People from any walk of life will eventually grow into a more defensive-minded people when they're constantly having to be ready for the next conflict.
This isn't specific to Russians. This isn't specific to Germans. This isn't specific to anyone. It's just what bad life situations can do to a person.
grapehelium t1_j23c3jz wrote
(cheek in tongue)
well, when the opposition to the right wing party is called "labor", I don't think the newly minted Russian Israelis cared what labors positions were. They would vote anything but labor
now a bit more seriously.....
this is also about the time of the Oslo accords which saw regular, horrific terrorist attacks against Israel. With no peace on the horizon, Israelis grew disillusioned with the idea that the palestinians wanted to have peaceful relations.
GSNadav t1_j23sswe wrote
bro you are just bullshitting without having a clue, most ex-soviets in Israel are voting Yisrael Beitenu which opposes Netanyahu. They don't have much power at all. This has nothing to do with Russia.
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments