zenzukai t1_j1axggr wrote on December 22, 2022 at 11:21 PM

Reply to comment by MadCat360 in Canada moves to mandate electric vehicle sales starting in 2026 by rentalfloss

I don't think you've even addressed a single argument he brought up. How does one charge an electric car on a 120V 15A circuit that is available to people who live in condos and apartments?

How about full lifecycle of a battery? There is no infrastructure in place to recycle enough batteries, let alone building the batteries to begin with. It would require mining completely 80% of all known lithium sources, even the sources that we can't refine yet just to replace the vehicles we have.

How about cost? How many people can afford a new vehicle? Basically only the 1%. The 99% will be told by the 1% to eat cake.

Also how do you "make people charge them every day at peak times"? You plan on having a special police force going around ensuring people are following your orders? Don't you think that sounds a bit oblivious to reality? Not just idealistic oblivious, like childish 'don't understand basic reality' oblivious.

MadCat360 t1_j1az5vz wrote on December 22, 2022 at 11:34 PM

They edited their post after I replied. But ok.

Many apartment complexes have charging stations. My complex has level 3 stations that charge an average car in under 2 hours. If a charger is not available for you, you can buy a used hybrid or ICE.

Full lifecycle of batteries is between 300 and 500k miles. After a full battery lifecycle an EV is still between 6% and 20% more energy and carbon efficient than an ICE depending on what the grid uses to charger those EVs. There are numerous studies reporting this.

I make 50k a year. Definitely not 1%. I just ordered a brand new Bolt. Why? Because my ICE Audi costs 35 cents a mile and I drive 25k miles a year. For the same cost as I'm spending on gas and maintenance, I could simply have a newer more valuable car (my Audi is worth about 6k now after 200k miles) and I can increase my net worth while consolidating my vehicle costs into one payment each month. My charging is free at my apartment. Do you understand that this is only for new cars, and that you will still be able to buy a a used car if you can't afford a new one?

Your last point misses what I was trying to say. Worst case, if you replaced every car on the road with EVs, AND made them charge at peak times (worst case scenario), it's still only 30% more draw than now.

pollo316 t1_j1behvt wrote on December 23, 2022 at 1:31 AM

Just read this and calm down. You are reciting lies from big oil lobbyists at alarming rates. Motortrend covered all of this. https://www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-cars-ad-why-you-are-being-lied-to/amp/

zenzukai t1_j1bk4sw wrote on December 23, 2022 at 2:14 AM

Like usual, they don't even mention recycling batteries. What is the carbon cost associated with recycling old batteries into new ones? Not sure because it isn't at an industrial scale. Yet entirely dismissed by articles like this.

Did the article address mutli-dwelling infrastructure? The effects of exploding mineral demand?

I know the energy economics of batteries and EVs, and I know the recycling costs of the battery lifecycle put a huge '?' on the real costs.

These hard limits imposed so early are going to be reversed. Businesses are going to fail to properly adapt, government funded services are to fail to properly adapt, private individuals aren't going to be able to afford to adapt.

If you think inflation is bad now, just wait until costs across all society run up a vertical wall.

Electric vehicles are the future, no doubt. The problem is ham-fisting them into society will create distortions in the market, and it'll cost much more than we can estimate today.

Uncle_Rabbit t1_j1c0lhg wrote on December 23, 2022 at 4:29 AM

We need to be living less materialistic consumer focused lives without all the new tech and junk every year, but that's not profitable so that message won't get pushed, instead they want to sell everyone a new car. The materials used to make the cars will be mined, refined, and shipped with fossil fuels and the cars themselves will be manufactured and charged with fossil fuels. Why do EV's need to be connected to the internet to charge as well? Probably so corporations can monitor your habits, locations, everything and then sell the data to other corporations or governments that will pay for it. Hooray! More ads! In theory EV's sound great (if you believe they will all be charged from renewable sources), but I'm skeptical at best about the real world roll out of EV's. It seems like one more cash grab without addressing the underlaying issues society has.

zenzukai t1_j1c2n9r wrote on December 23, 2022 at 4:48 AM

The vast majority of energy use globally is for travel, food, heating and electricity. We can cut down on travel, even food and electricity, hard to do for heating.

The most significant things you can do is stop eating meat, stop going on vacations, bike to work. Everything else is trivial.

pdp10 t1_j1ilbpf wrote on December 24, 2022 at 5:35 PM

> hard to do for heating.

Not fundamentally difficult. It's called "insulation". Difficult to economically retrofit in many cases, however. That 1937 farmhouse with minimal insulation and originally fitted with a coal-burning boiler, will be hard to adapt into a highly insulated, tight-envelope modern house with a heat pump.

WikiSummarizerBot t1_j1ildcb wrote on December 24, 2022 at 5:35 PM

Passive house

>"Passive house" (German: Passivhaus) is a voluntary standard for energy efficiency in a building, which reduces the building's ecological footprint. It results in ultra-low energy buildings that require little energy for space heating or cooling. A similar standard, MINERGIE-P, is used in Switzerland. The standard is not confined to residential properties; several office buildings, schools, kindergartens and a supermarket have also been constructed to the standard.

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bigcaprice t1_j1c9vcz wrote on December 23, 2022 at 6:00 AM

>How does one charge an electric car on a 120V 15A circuit that is available to people who live in condos and apartments?

Same way people who don't have gas pumps in their condo fuel up, you build the infrastructure they need.

>How about full lifecycle of a battery? There is no infrastructure in place to recycle enough batteries, let alone building the batteries to begin with. It would require mining completely 80% of all known lithium sources, even the sources that we can't refine yet just to replace the vehicles we have.

Build a battery recycling plant. Find and produce more lithium (like we've done with oil for decades)

>How many people can afford a new vehicle? Basically only the 1%.

This can't be a serious statement.

>Also how do you "make people charge them every day at peak times"? You plan on having a special police force going around ensuring people are following your orders?

You vary the price of electricity throughout the day to encourage people to charge when demand is lower. Devices that do this for large appliances have existed for years, speaking of oblivious to reality.