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nikhoxz t1_j0uqnny wrote

"Turkey throws tantrum and decides to buy s-400 out of spite and despite being a nato ally"

Well, you could say "the US didn't gave them the Patriot despite Turkey being a nato ally"

I mean, what did the US expected? They want weapons, your ally doesn't provide it? Well, look for someone who will actually sell it to you.

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IASIPxIASIP t1_j0uxrui wrote

It's not that simple. USA didn't just refuse to give Patriots, there were other factors that played a major role

You can read up more on here https://warontherocks.com/2019/07/the-tale-of-turkey-and-the-patriots/

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EternalPinkMist t1_j0wzzqb wrote

I dislike the Turkish government but this just pushes me to agree with them more. Albeit I didn't read past the Turkish coup part of the article.

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RicoLoveless t1_j0v23td wrote

Turkey wanted a tech transfer too for the patriots. Not just the units itself. Funny how the Turkish nationalists always leave this fact out.

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ohokayiguess1 t1_j0uyewu wrote

>Well, you could say "the US didn't gave them the Patriot despite Turkey being a nato ally"

Both you and original commenter are incorrect. US was quite willing to sell Patriots to Turkey. The US however as is standard l, would not open strategic code to Turkey which caused the bitch fit and turn to s-400s.

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Ikaros004 t1_j0v21jn wrote

My comment is not incorrect. The US denied the sale to turkey under the requested terms. I just didn't go into detail.

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ohokayiguess1 t1_j0v2pdz wrote

>. I just didn't go into know the detail.

FTFY

Your entire context and literal statemwnt was the US was not willing to provide the weaponry and thus Turkey went somewhere else. This is factually and contextually incorrect. Russia also did not allow Turkey to build sensitive parts of the s-400.

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_AutomaticJack_ t1_j0vrzd2 wrote

The other option is that he knew the details and made a deliberate decision not to mention them because they make his argument much weaker... Either way is bad, but yours might actually be the more charitable interpretation....

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Ikaros004 t1_j0vz73k wrote

So i ask you then, what was my argument and how did me failing to mention details regarding the negotiations between the US and turkey "weaken" my argument. I dare you to respond, i bet you wont.

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_AutomaticJack_ t1_j0x6gd1 wrote

I agree with most of the statements in the original post but the follow-on post that makes the argument that "the details of the deal don't matter" is both a bad take and incorrect on the face of it, given how deep the geopolitical implications and attendant backroom wrangling goes into even fairly simplistic weapons transfers, let alone cutting edge tech with wide ranging NATSEC implications.

As has been pointed out, asking to buy something in the same fashion everyone else has, with the same training and support as everyone else has received is one thing. If after you have been approved through the same process as everyone else, you decide that you require all the tools, training, software and engineering background information necessary to modify or potentially build one of them on your own; that is something else. If it were available at all it would not be available at the same price, the price both monetarily and otherwise would be massively higher. It is at a minimum the difference between buying a Honda and buying a Honda dealership.

Also given that the Patriot Missile System is a part of the US BMD umbrella, and things related to strategic strikes at best and nuclear war at worst tend to be held quite "close to the vest" it seems logical that the details of the inner-workings of the Patriot Missile system might not be available to anyone at any price. AFAICT the only example of tech transfer around the Patriot is the integration of the Rafael Skyceptor Missile into the system and that was primarily transfering information into US hands not out of them.

If you didn't know or understand any of that, that is one thing as Turkey/Western relations is a pretty deep rabbithole, especially post Erdo and no one will fault you for that. If you were deliberately trying to conceal information (which seems less likely on a reread) that makes Turkey look less like the victim and get them more sympathy after they way overreached in their relationship with the US and then decided to play a little "fuck around and find out" by buying S400s from Russia, than that would be something else and something worse. Turkey has decided to play hardball with everyone all the time and that is certainly fair and valid for an independent nation, they just shouldn't be surprised if people want to take their ball and go home, and tell others not to bother with them if they are going to be like that...

Sidenote: the way reedit rearranges comments over time based on votes makes it much harder to keep track of deeper conversations with more branches like this one...

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Ikaros004 t1_j0v3lue wrote

They were not willing to provide weaponry, because of the conditions requested. It doesn't matter what the details are, the US did not sell them patriot missiles.The sale was denied. The details are irrelevant to this discussion.

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you-asshat t1_j0v5f9d wrote

Context is never irrelevant

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Ikaros004 t1_j0v7i0c wrote

That wasn't context, that was a minor detail that's not relevant to the point of the story. You are missing the point and focusing on a minor detail that ultimately doesn't matter. Who cares how the deal unfolded between turkey and the US, the end result is the same. You have to ask your self if that minor detail had been specified would that have changed the point of the story in any way? If the answer is no, the detail specified is unnecessary.

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Key_Resident_1968 t1_j0vr0e1 wrote

Bro bend you mind harder and you qualify for the olympics in metal gymnastics.

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Ikaros004 t1_j0vuedu wrote

It isn't, your peanut size brain doesn't have the ability to recognize irrelevant information. The US did deny their request which led to them being angry and buying the s400. Thats a fact. Whether they offered alternatives is irrelevant. I qualify for mental gymnastics, you qualify for special Olympics.

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Sagybagy t1_j0wxb3k wrote

Bud, you have tried and tried to bend this your way. It’s not working. Turkey wanted access to sensitive code. US denied it. Turkey went to Russia for their weapons. Which is exactly why the US wouldn’t give them the code. Turkey is a fucking disaster of a country and honestly outside of strategic military positioning, has no business in the EU. They are a shit pot dictatorship.

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Ikaros004 t1_j0x2u83 wrote

Everything you just said is exactly what is said except i didn't go into to detail regarding the negotiations. That is a fact. The original post still stands unaltered.

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Sagybagy t1_j0xb7ub wrote

You glossed over the top in an attempt to make it sound like Turkey was hosed by the US. Which it wasn’t. They don’t give sensitive code to anyone. No matter how much you want to play the “details don’t matter” in regards to your statements.

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Ikaros004 t1_j0xd5xn wrote

In a sense they were hosed due to unreasonable demands. The issue isn't the original post, its your interpretation. Also the story is not about turkey getting hosed. If that were the case id agree with you. The point of the story is that turkey will cause you to have an issue then blame you for it. if you miss the point of the story then it would be understandable getting stuck on details.

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Ikaros004 t1_j0url0p wrote

Why would they, all they do is threaten other nato allies and surrounding countries. They've been getting involved in middle east, europe and africa when they are not a super power even though they think they are. Also turkey plays both sides, who knows what they will sell russia. Not a reliable ally and i would argue they are not an ally at all. Take away access to the bosphorus straits and all they are, are a liability.

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nikhoxz t1_j0urswb wrote

Ahh sry, now i realize you are greek, understandable, have a nice day.

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Skoodelly t1_j0utids wrote

Because he is Greek his argument is invalid. Welp I've think I've just found the turk

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AvoidMyRange t1_j0uyfnz wrote

A master class on how propaganda works not just in Russia, right there.

Sincerely, a German living in Asia with no dog in the fight.

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nikhoxz t1_j0uz70v wrote

Literally don't give a fuck about turks, i don't even live in europe, but trying to debate with someone who is giving shit to them basically for being turks.. i mean..

"THROWS TANTRUMS" "EPIC BITCH FIT"

You can argue without being an asshole, but no, he is being an asshole and coincidentally, his username is related to greek mythology.. that explains a lot.

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Skoodelly t1_j0v04gi wrote

How is he, in any way being an asshole? My man just said the truth in a respectful manner. It's sad seeing what turkey has become nowadays, I feel deeply sorry for the millions of Turks who have to live in borderline poverty because their soon to be dictator erdofucker only cares about himself

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datenschwanz t1_j0vcno2 wrote

Turkey tries to play both sides (NATO/US against Russia) all the time to get their way and keep a foot in each boat without getting wet.

The US move was in response to an action that Turkey took.

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Mossy375 t1_j0wjsas wrote

> Well, you could say "the US didn't gave them the Patriot despite Turkey being a nato ally"

> I mean, what did the US expected? They want weapons, your ally doesn't provide it? Well, look for someone who will actually sell it to you

Here you are saying that Turkey had to look elsewhere as their ally wouldn't sell them the weapons, and then when called out on how this is wrong and the US would actually sell them the weapons, just not transfer the tech, you claim to have known this all along and it's irrelevant detail. Your efforts to weasel your way out of this are spectacularly embarrassing and I am in awe that you think you are convincing anyone.

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nikhoxz t1_j0x2fuv wrote

Actually, i never "claim to have known this all along", i just answered to the comment, which never specified it.

It seemed unfair to say X country is throwing tantrums and epic bitch whatever for something that seemed extremely logical. The entire comment looked just like a chance to say shit about Turkey.

Got downvoted to oblivion because of that lol

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