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Standard_Mammoth1682 t1_iycqi4c wrote

At least. I am not hating ordinary hungarians here, but orban and whole hungarian government should not get away with it.

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Paradoxmetroid t1_iycqxcp wrote

Agreed. It's sad to see.

Hungarians are mostly indifferent and like him because he essentially bribed the whole country with various handouts through the height of covid.

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Got_No_Situation t1_iycykiy wrote

Hungarians mostly don't like him, but 12 years is enough time to become indifferent when nothing you've done to protest the hostile overtake of your country ended up moving the needle at all.

There isn't nearly enough emphasis placed on the fact that an EU Member State was politically and judicially dismantled by the Russians and is not acting in accordance with any European's values (including their voters).

Note that the election in April of this year, most of their voters (which is still less than 50%) believed that voting "no" would immediately result in them being sent to war. In addition to that, the official election ballots included a yes/no question suggesting that forced gender reassignment for children will be made legal if the party loses the vote.

We are not a nation that has any love for Russia. Of the countries that don't share a border with them, we are probably the ones with the most historical, cultural and generational loss due to Russia. As long as the misinformation machine and hostile judiciary are in place, our elections don't represent anything our populace actually believes.

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hawara160421 t1_iye3rai wrote

>Note that the election in April of this year, most of their voters (which is still less than 50%) believed that voting "no" would immediately result in them being sent to war.

Wait, what? What's the story, here?

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Tromort77 t1_iyehccb wrote

The main opponent said that we have to support NATO and our allies as much as possible and their propaganda machine translated it as it's either FIDESZ or your sons will be sent to the fronts. Their propaganda machine is immense and they can create any narrative.

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higgs8 t1_iyejt6h wrote

As the war broke out, Orbán was quick to put up election posters everywhere with his face saying "Let's preserve Hungary's security and safety", and others with opposition leaders claiming they are "Dangerous". As well as stories about how the opposition wants war and that Fidesz is the only party who can prevent it. With the opposition having no money for posters and being banned from television altogether (since all TV is state-run), there was no way for them to refute the claims.

Sure, people could in theory inform themselves on the internet, but keep in mind that the internet is only useful to people who have been educated to have critical thinking. Most people in Hungary are too poor to make effective use of information online. They just watch TV and that's it.

It makes no sense whatsoever. But the majority of Hungary's territory is slums with people living in such poverty that their only source of information are the posters and the state-run TV channels. They may not have running water but they have endless propaganda. Would you vote for the people telling you that war is bad? Or the "others" who you've never really heard of and who apparently want some kind of war. Also they want transexuals and transvestites to convince your kids about getting gender reassignment surgery. I'm not kidding. There was an actual referendum about whether or not you want your kids to get gender reassignment surgery, on the same day as the election, with the clear implication that the government is asking these questions to protect you from such terrible things. In reality, the referendum was invalid due to low participation. But those who answered felt like they are in real danger, and they obviously voted for the government.

Oh, also they get 5000 HUF if they vote for Fidesz (source: I was one of the many commissioned by the OSCE to document election fraud on election day), which is like 2 packs of cigarettes. Who in their right mind would say no to that?

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lokicramer t1_iyf48vq wrote

Outside the major cities most people like him.

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Mohreb t1_iydyv4a wrote

The bribe of people begun by legalizing home-brew alcohol. But the main issue is not that. From 10 million Hungarians 2 million works and lives abroad. And they live there because they disagree with the ongoing politics. Most because it is easier to go and live then stay and fight it. Others because you can't make a living if you politizies in Hungary. There were some claims of cheating elections, but if 2 million opposition can't even (practically) vote. It is not even an issue.

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pmmichalowski t1_iyd61xl wrote

I slightly disagree with your attitude, you should not blame individual Hungarians for actions of their government and Orban.

However Hungarians as a whole are to blame for keeping him in power. So are British for Brexit and Americans for Trump. I strongly disagree with attitude that will of the people is just excused. Russians at least have an excuse that no one really counts their votes.

I will reiterate that this not mean, meeting a random Hungarian and accusing them off being responsible for Orban.

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Standard_Mammoth1682 t1_iyd6m6v wrote

My beloved movie quote: Person is smart. People are dumb panicky animals.

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pmmichalowski t1_iyd6z1h wrote

I read somewhere and I don't remember where, that culture is useless to predict action of individual, however it is useful to predict behaviour of a group, approaching almost certainly if that group numbers in millions.

I think we are mostly in agreement, but i think we should be calling out cultures for being toxic more.

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Rustyflyntlock t1_iydxdea wrote

The idea that cultures inherently deserve respect always bothered me for this reason. Individuals generally deserve respect until they've shown themselves unworthy, but respect should be the default. Culture and beliefs need to be criticized. They are not the individual and can be actively harmful to the individual and society as a whole.

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[deleted] t1_iyet4g6 wrote

I mean, I understand where the "cultures deserve respect" people are coming from. Most cultures do have some things about them that are interesting and cool. But that doesn't mean we need to respect them for the bullshit that their culture puts forward.

I don't respect American Conservative culture (note: I view the united states as two mutually incompatible cultures trapped in a cage together). It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.

I don't respect Iranian Shiite culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.

I don't respect Russian culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.

etc

Notice a fucking theme?

That being said there are some positive qualities in most of those groups.

American Conservatives are usually rural, and most of those are big on helping their neighbor. That's a positive trait.

Iranian culture has a rich and long history with interesting art, etc.

Russian Culture... hmm.. ok i'd have to sit and think about that one

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CecubeCasual t1_iye9iv9 wrote

Isaac Azimov "The Foundation" series.

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pmmichalowski t1_iye9owp wrote

It's a very similar idea, but it was in non-fiction :)

I will have to finish the TV series though

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[deleted] t1_iyeta99 wrote

The TV series is different from the books in significant ways, but still clearly inspired by it and sharing some of the same central themes (like Psychohistory)

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bonesnaps t1_iyectig wrote

My beloved movie quote: ooh Big gulps eh? ...Alright!

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One_User134 t1_iye0p6d wrote

Wait….most Americans didn’t vote for that orange fool. Electoral college system is shit.

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pmmichalowski t1_iye16e4 wrote

But most Americans either didn't oppose him or supported him.

The system is shit I agree and deliberately encouraging apathy, but it is an explanation not an excuse.

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Future_Specialist_32 t1_iyefoha wrote

It's not helpful to blame a population for collective behaviour. It has the same energy as people who claim they would've spoken out about slavery if only they were back in the olden times, or rebelled in Nazi Germany in the 30s.

I mean, maybe you would have done, but statistically, no. You'd have followed the crowd, because by that point in your life you'd have been exposed to the same propoganda and manipulation that got the crowd thinking that way in the first place. If it were that simple to rise above it all, it wouldn't have worked on the masses in the first place.

Blame the parties causing that population to share that collective behaviour.

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pmmichalowski t1_iyege3a wrote

I'm sorry, do you want me not to blame the Nazis? The Nazis are exactly the moment in history when we agreed that just following orders is not going to cut it.

I literally could not disagree with you more. People did speak against Nazis and slavery and people died fighting against it.

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Future_Specialist_32 t1_iyf1mxm wrote

It depends what you mean by "the Nazis". I certainly don't think it's particularly productive to blame the average citizen.

What was the difference between the average person in Germany in the 30s and the average person in any other country at that same point in time? Because if people aren't allowed to be products of their environment, are you saying it was some inherent genetic flaw? What else could cause a perversion of morals on the same level?

People spoke against the Nazis then and slavey before, but the majority didn't. We're probably going through the exact same thing now with veganism. There's no moral argument for most people to continue consuming animal products, but here we are.

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shalo62 t1_iyf9ur2 wrote

Comparing veganism to the nazis? Fuck off. You had the perfect opportunity for an argument and you pissed it up against the wall with that little tidbit!

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Odin52573 t1_iyd59q7 wrote

To be fair, it is the normal ordinary people who voted for them, unless you imply fraud and a dictatorship, for which the EU probably have some prevention process or oversight.

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Got_No_Situation t1_iyd8kmx wrote

> unless you imply fraud and a dictatorship

That is exactly what this is.

> for which the EU probably have some prevention process or oversight.

That's what I naively believed in 2011-2012 when this started. After 2014 it became clear that they do not, and we are on our own.

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Odin52573 t1_iyd9lm4 wrote

If this is true, then a foreign military intervention is needed or a civil war.

Unless Hungary, like every country is at least half full of the oppressive fascist types, where most people believe that voting 3rd party is throwing away your vote, so you get the classic 2 party system of interchanging power between 2 people for decades.

Which one is more likely?

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Got_No_Situation t1_iydbn36 wrote

The former (military intervention) is impossible short of WW3, since neither NATO nor the EU can wage war against itself.

The latter is just true, so obviously that's the more likely one. However, the reason this came to be is the central media control. The reason people vote based on an entirely false view of events (think One America News, except it's every channel) is due to the central media control.

That's the pillar holding all of their power, and the reason they were able to subvert everything while keeping up the pretense of fair elections. So that's where they can and should be attacked. Until then, they can mobilize their plurality voterbase against absolutely anything because they can literally control what a significant-enough portion of people believe. Think MAGA, except with near perfect linguistic isolation on their side.

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Odin52573 t1_iyde3f1 wrote

So then it is the normal peoples fault. Willful ignorance might not be the best defence for them, nor should it be.

Do you believe everything that they tell you?

Could it be that the other side also doesn't understand them, which is why it always comes down to exact opposites, instead of the more real, slightly different approaches to the same problem?

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Got_No_Situation t1_iydfyes wrote

> So then it is the normal peoples fault. Willful ignorance might not be the best defence for them, nor should it be.

I can agree with that in a detached, theoretical way where we are not looking for solutions but where to place blame. But since this method can and will work on other countries, and in fact is being deployed even in the most "blame-free" Western countries with some success already (UK, NL, USA), I don't think that really helps. Even if you're okay with just discarding the will of entire nations, we still need a solution to the mass manipulation problem.

> Could it be that the other side also doesn't understand them, which is why it always comes down to exact opposites, instead of the more real, slightly different approaches to the same problem?

I am not sure what you mean by this. There is no "other side". They won on the back of the failures of the previous government in 2010, and began altering election law and setting up centralized propaganda immediately.

There isn't really room for oppositional candidates of any sort to gain any kind of ground, so it's not like the ""left"" versus ""right"" dichotomy that still exists in the US.

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Hippos-in-Colombia t1_iyed0ma wrote

This right here IS the mechanism. They are witholding the funds for this very reason, hungary is backsliding on democracy.

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Odin52573 t1_iyedark wrote

Not exactly prevention, but is a good thing to do.

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