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Wwize t1_jdvdwz8 wrote

Maybe Germany needs to look at why its population is shrinking. Perhaps wages are too low, hours are too long, and people are just unable or unwilling to start a family due to lack of money and time. Employers need to give people more time and money to live.

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vindictivemonarch t1_jdvzv4w wrote

in germany, they give you money to have children. it's called kindergeld.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_benefit

depends on the number of children: first 2 is 219€/child/month, until they're adults. i knew people in college that were still collecting kindergeld.

maternal leave can be anywhere from several weeks to several years. you keep your job and a paycheck with few limitations.

your employer is also required to give you two paid vacation days per month. that's almost 4 weeks of paid vacation per year at the entry level, before you count national/state holidays.

undergrad is free.

you could have all this too, if you would only tax the rich, but america sucks huge dirty donkey dick and loves it

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WindHero t1_jdxiycq wrote

Yet Germans have fewer children than Americans.

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flukshun t1_jdxk8c3 wrote

America took the opposite approach: people living in poverty tend to have more children

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Comrade_Derpsky t1_jdx26lw wrote

Working hours are fine. People don't work super long hours in Germany. You also get quite a bit of vacation time. The reason people don't have many kids (as is happening all over the developed world) is because the balance of incentives don't favor having kids. Kids are very expensive, both in terms of direct time and money spent on them and indirectly due to things like housing needs for families. And unlike in the old days, you can't just put them to work once they're 12 and have them earn money for the family or perform labor on your farm (because most people don't have a farm these days). Your kids won't realistically be able to produce any economic returns on all the money you've invested into them until they are well into their 20s or later once they're actually stable and have a career. And all the while, the upfront cost is gradually getting steeper and steeper. Housing is gradually becoming prohibitively expensive here in Germany, and even if you can afford what you need comfortably the supply is small relative to the demand. All these costs force young people to think hard about whether they want kids or not and force them to also wait longer before having kids.

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8yr0n t1_jdw9u4f wrote

Germans work some of the lowest hours in the world and also have high incomes. It is without a doubt one of the best places in the world to be a lower or middle class worker.

Pay and free time are not the issue causing low birth rates there.

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Wwize t1_jdwajeb wrote

And even that isn't good enough, obviously. Billionaire executives and shareholders need to stop being so greedy and pay their workers more.

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lemonylol t1_jdx2mpv wrote

Yeah but the statistics also show that the more wealth people have the less kids they tend to have, regardless of background.

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moosknauel t1_jefcqiq wrote

Demographic-economic paradox is something prevalent in sociology. YOu can just google it and find a lot with it.

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WealthyMarmot t1_jdx63qt wrote

Given that income and education are inversely correlated to fertility rates, I'm not sure how that would help. There are deeper issues at play.

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TheGreatPiata t1_jdx8x4h wrote

The problem is requiring 2 incomes to survive. If you want people to have more kids, move to a 3 day work week so someone can always be home tending to the house and family.

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turbo-unicorn t1_jdxouge wrote

Not sure if this applies to Germany, but I suspect it's similar. Here in NL, working 4 days a week is quite common. Of course, lower pay, but it's good enough for most things.

Housing is a huge problem, but I suspect the birth rate has more to do with people just wanting to enjoy life more, as kids are quite the burden on a hedonistic life style.

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liljizbaby t1_jdxsswl wrote

Please cite a single country where this happens.

Rich countries have less children then poorer ones. It has nothing to do with incomes, but rather education.

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TheGreatPiata t1_je02xul wrote

You're missing my point.

Because everyone needs 2 incomes to survive, everyone is focused on work and careers instead of home and family. Having only 1 person in a household work isn't ideal because 2 incomes are more stable and it makes one person have all the homemaker responsibilities (and it will likely usually be the woman).

If you move to a 3 day work week, someone should be home most of the time to take care of children and do household chores, women can continue to work and fathers can be more present.

This isn't happening in any countries because no one is attempting it and likely won't for a long time.

The dearth of children is a multifaceted problem but I think the biggest hurdles outside of finding a spouse is the cost (not just money but loss of career advancement) and available free time everyone has. I have 2 kids and it takes an awful lot to see them through those early years.

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Torugu t1_jdw6p6d wrote

Or maybe educated, responsible people with access to birth control choose to have fewer children later instead of popping out their first baby at 21. Which is great for the educated responsible people, but terrible for the long-term future of the country.

As a matter of fact, Germany has some of the strongest benefits for young parents in the world, to the extend where many people move back to Germany just to have children.

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Eswyft t1_jdx1ene wrote

Educated people more likely to realize there's a good chance anyone born now could have a incredibly worse life given global warming and just don't want to risk that for any potential children

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Metal-Wolf-Enrif t1_jdvku1z wrote

Living in germany: While for some people all of the above might by the reason, others simply don't want children.

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strawberries6 t1_jdxbmz8 wrote

>Maybe Germany needs to look at why its population is shrinking.

In case you truly don't know, birth rates have trended downwards in virtually every country over the past 70 years.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/crude-birth-rate

Generally birth rates go down as the standard of living and education improves (though this does not necessarily mean birth rates will rise again, if livings standards get worse).

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Professional_Class_4 t1_jdxy8qp wrote

From a german who has a child and is thinking about a second one: Its less about the money but more about child care. In general wages in germany are OK. Yes it is extremly hard to get rich through labor but if you have a full time job the wage is OK (underpayed maybe but no comparison to having multiple jobs in the US). The problem is, it is often impossible to find child care. It is more or less for free and thus there are few private kindergardens.

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TheElderCouncil t1_jdw7h7i wrote

Jesus. Wtf do people in USA say then if that’s what’s happening in Germany?

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8yr0n t1_jdwa8bx wrote

I’d say “I would love to move to Germany but really don’t want to learn German!”

Could you just bring your worker protections, time off, and healthcare system here instead please?

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Wwize t1_jdw87ot wrote

I know working conditions are worse in the US. However, we have a lot more immigration to make up for the low birth rate of US citizens.

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Ziddix t1_jdzqa9d wrote

The problem the developed world is running into is that more and more people realise that life can have a better quality without kids. In Germany especially this doesn't have much to do with wages or working hours. Germany is actually pretty good in those areas and the laws and regulations are very accommodating if not outright supportive of starting families.

Young women these days also have much better career prospects than they did a few decades ago so a lot of women chose to focus on their career and staying single because why wouldn't they.

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Cr33py07dGuy t1_je3t3jp wrote

Money and child support etc. here is honestly very good. I think a big issue is the length of time that formal education takes. You are well into your twenties before you can START looking for your first job with a University education, which can delay when you can get married and have children, assuming that educated people prefer to have a house or some kind of stable living situation before starting a family. This also means that your children are likely to be an expense well into their 20s. Also, not just how many children you have but when you have them effects the demographic chart already. It makes a big difference to the country’s population if there are 40 years between generations rather than 20!

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Former_Star1081 t1_je46nfw wrote

I think we are among the lowest working hours in the world. Many people working fulltime jobs under 40 hours/week.

And if it would be about wages why are poor people getting more children? Why is the global south getting more children than rich western societies? It does not add up and your logic is just plain wrong.

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Wwize t1_je53a6g wrote

Lack of sex education and lots of religion and forced marriages are the reason people have more kids in those countries. The lack of education leads people to have kids before they can afford them, and they all end up living in poverty. German couples have sex education so they can plan when to have kids, and they choose not to because they're too expensive and take up too much time.

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Former_Star1081 t1_je53rez wrote

Obviously, but why should they get children when they have more money and freetime? They could just consume more and still get no children, which is mich more likly. You should get significantly less pension when you get no children. That would be a good fix.

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