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Can someone please ELI5? Israelis and Palestinians. Cousins separated by 2000 years of time, religion and diaspora. There's a line, right, separating Israelis and Palestinians? Or is it "lines?" What's with the "settlements?" That's somebody else's land, so why build there? Scope creep, but orders of magnitude more than that. The whole thing gives me a headache.

Settlers (often very religious, right wing) view all of historic Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) as their rightful land, regardless of actual borders. In their mind, they are reclaiming the homeland of the Jewish people. International law, Palestinians, and many Israelis, however, disagree with that take.

The West Bank is a bit of a clusterfuck. Palestine launched attacks from there and Israel took it over. Israel gave it back and Palestine went back to launching attacks from it. So now Israel isn't necessarily against it's people moving in. Which honestly is pretty fair as they tried to be nice and give it back, and now they may as well claim it as their own.

That's not pretty fair; settling in occupied land is a war crime.

It's way more complicated than that. Jews have been living in the WB constantly for thousands of years until 1948, when 99% of their communities were ethnically cleansed from there following Israel's independence war and Jordan's control over the area.

I mean, Israel let hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to stay in it's territory and receive equal rights and citizenship (Today they number 2M people, about 20% of Israel). But the Palestinians murdered or expelled all the Jews.

Not that I'm in favor of the settlements, but the situation is complex with good arguments on all sides. redditors are just usually ignorant and see everything through a black and white lens.

Edit: The guy who commented under me apparently blocked me so I can't reply to his factually wrong comment.

Someone should explain to him that his claim that Israel "Couldn't completely ethnic cleanse the land" is incompatible with reality. As the truth is the other way around, and Israel offered the Palestinians sovereignty over the WB and Gaza 5 different times. All refused in favor of an attempt to "Free Palestine from river to sea".

This guy claiming Israel deserves brownie points because they couldn't completely ethnic cleanse the land they colonized.

Also both-siding a war crime, jesus.

EDIT: Someone should explain to the guy who defends war crimes that committing massacres with the objective of expelling people from their homes and not allowing them to return IS ETHNIC CLEANSING. They did that to Palestinians in what's now Israel in 1948, Palestinians in the West Bank in 1967 and Syrians in the Golan Heights in 1967. Israel is a state founded on war crimes.

I don't see how it's more complicated than that. The West Bank and Gaza are considered to be occupied land, which Israel took in war. Settling citizens in occupied land in a war crime, because it's a form of ethnic cleansing. If we cared what happened thousands of years ago, let's just go ahead and revive the Roman Empire then.

Palestinians killed Jews. Ok. Is your argument that this justifies continued settlement in occupied land (again, a war crime)? Palestinian terrorism or inability to compromise on borders is not a justification for settlement of Palestinian lands by Israeli citizens.

> If we cared what happened thousands of years ago, let's just go ahead and revive the Roman Empire then.

TIL 1948 was "Thousands of years ago"

You led with them being there for thousands of years, which doesn't matter.

But ok. Crimea was transferred to Ukraine in 1954. This fact doesn't make Crimea Russian. Atrocities on the Jews in 1948 doesn't justify war crimes in 2023.

Look, I object to the settlements. They do nothing to help any sort of possible peace.

But the fact is that the Palestinians have refused a peace deal and autonomy over this land. Israel offered it 5 times already.

What they did offer to Israel is an endless amount of suicide bombers, explosive charges, guns, knives, molotovs and more, all targeted specifically against Israeli innocent civilians.

These are actually crimes against humanity, the most evil kind. It's time the Palestinians show they are actually willing to go for peace on their side as well.

Did you know the Palestinian leadership pays pensions to terrorists who murdered Israeli civilians? They even pay you more the more you kill, this is not a joke.

Not to mention their education system teaching literal 3 years old to attack Jews and much more.

These are all incredibly serious crimes that started happening long before the settlements became such a problem.

Also, Israel has already attempted evacuating all settlements around the Gaza strip, all they got in return is tens of thousands of rockets directed on their cities. You read that right, tens of thousands.

What I'm getting at is, you can call people settling a land that was taken from them violently 70 years ago "War criminals" all you want. But if you want anything productive to actually happen, maybe start looking to the Palestinians to prove, for the first time in history, that they are willing to make an actual peace. I promise you this will empower the Israeli left again and the settlements will be solved.

And BTW, all of this violence coming from the Palestinians towards Israelis, makes your comparison to Ukraine incredibly empty and ridiculous, so I suggest stopping with that one if you care at all about actual facts and honesty.

None of this, none of this, has anything to do with settlements. These are all arguments for a continued military presence in the areas, raids, attacks, etc. Gaza given you problems? Send the army in, crush the people bombing you. Those are military responses to military problems and they are not war crimes.

This is not what we're discussing. We're discussing state-backed settlements into a land seized by force, which coupled with the demolitions of Palestinians houses and villages, is open ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. Absolutely zero of the things you've described are.improved by settlements. Clearly Israel isn't bothered with the bombs, guns and knives if it pursues policies that worsen those problems with no clear goal in mind beyond wanting the land. The settlements make any two state solution actually impossible. So then what, what's the goal?

You want them to hate you less? Stop demolishing their houses.

> None of this, none of this, has anything to do with settlements. These are all arguments for a continued military presence in the areas, raids, attacks, etc. Gaza given you problems? Send the army in, crush the people bombing you. Those are military responses to military problems and they are not war crimes.

I 100% agree to this. Which is why I am against the settlements and am in the streets for months now protesting against our shittiest government to date.

But reality is more complex than that and after so much violence, as I demonstrated in my comment, you can easily understand why Israelis are becoming more radicalized too, not just the Palestinians. To this date, all serious major attempts for peace only came from Israel, I'm afraid it would be much easier for us to cool things down if the other side will reciprocate that sentiment, just a tiny bit...

I mean you can talk ideals all you want but people are people. And when you have to run away with your kids at 4 am for the third time that night to the shelter because of the Palestinian leaders, don't be surprised when many Israelis let the extremists win and do whatever they like.

> coupled with the demolitions of Palestinians houses and villages

This is entirely a myth. Settlements are built on empty lands 99.99% of times and the vast amounts of house demolitions happening are inside Israel's territory to illegally built houses, where the same laws apply to both Jews and Israeli-Arabs.

The rest (The minority by far) are usually houses of Palestinian terrorists who murdered Israelis. This is done as a tiny form of justice, as the Palestinian authorities will not only won't attempt to stop the terrorist, but actually pay him or his family pensions for life for the successful murder of Israelis. (Called the Martyr fund, you are welcome to look it up).

In that way they incentivize our murders economically, so destroying the house is at least something.

Look, I understand the legitimate security issues Israel faces. I don't live through it and I don't want to live through it, but I understand. Retreating from Paleatine isn't going to bring peace, I know that. Some sort of military occupation is going to continue until the bombs stop.

What I can't understand, and what makes me angry, is that Israelis time and again vote for people, parties and policies that make the security situation worse. At a certain point, it just makes most of the voting public cruel. Just stop settling in the West Bank! If there's an illegal settlement, kick them out! All it does is create more death and suffering for both nations, and for what? I don't get it.

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>Just stop settling in the West Bank!

If it means anything, there have been very very few new settlements in the past years. Nearly all of the building (that was done legally) was done in and around existing settlements.

>If there's an illegal settlement, kick them out!

In 2005, at the same time that Israel kicked out all of the settlers from Gaza, they evacuated several settlements in Northern Samaria, but the military stayed. And what did Israel get? One of the most lawless areas where terrorists freely walk around with assault rifles and people are such extremists that German tourists going through get attacked because they have Israeli license plates. Even just taking the settlers out doesn't solve any problems or make the situation any better.

Because the same thing happened to the Jews in Arab countries maybe? For example, how many Jews were in Iraq in 1947? 156,000. How many today? 3.

Jews lived there but kept being colonized by various empires. In 70CE the Romans came and destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and sent most Jews into the Diaspora. About 60 years later the Jews tried to revolt again against the Romans in Israel (what they had renamed Phalestina after the ancient Israelite's enemy the Philistines). The Jews end up all over the Roman empire, Middle East and Northern Africa. About 500 years later, Islam is founded by Muhammad and the Islamic empire conquers all of the middle east, northern Africa, Spain and parts of eastern Europe. They treat the Jews as second class citizens, but better than the European Jews are treated where they face pogroms and expulsions. In the 11th century, the Christians start the crusades and want to make the Holy Land Christian. Meaning they not only fight the Muslims there, but also the Jews who remained. This goes back and forth between the Christians and the Islamic empires (none of whom are actually from the Levant) until the Ottomans come and take it. The ottomans held Israel up until they lost World War I when it falls into British hands. The Brits promised both the Jews and the Arabs in the region their own national homeland (some extremists will say that Jordan is what they promised for the Arabs of the region). After WWII, it becomes all more evident that the Jews need a national homeland and on 29 November 1947, the UN votes to partition the land between the Jews and Arabs. Just before the British leave, Israel declares independence in the borders it was granted by the UN. Arab armies from Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Iraq invade Israel, but dispite heavy losses, Israel won and took a little more territory than they were granted by the UN because it proved these borders were indefensible. Along the way in the war, Israel exppeled and killed many Palestinians. A lot, but not all, of this was done by Jewish paramilitary groups that did not end up officially becoming part of the IDF. Eventually, a ceasefire line was drawn, called the Green Line, which people think is the border of Palestine, but in reality it was governed by Jordan and Egypt. In 1967, Egypt blocked the straights of Tiran, blocking Israeli ships from access to the Indian Ocean, a declaration of war. Israel took over the Sinai, Gaza, West Bank Goaln Heights, and the eastern part of Jerusalem in the process of the war. The Sinai was exchanged with Egypt about 10 years later in exchange for peace and eventually Jordan relinquished claim over the West Bank and made peace with Israel as well in exchange for a water sharing agreement. The Golan Heights (not historically part of the same region, but contiguous nonetheless) was offered in exchange for peace with Syria, but was turned down. Before the foundation of the State of Israel, there were Jews who lived in most of these areas and had to move because of the war. Most of these Jews move back starting the first "settlements". Over time these settlements get bigger and bigger and others form as well. Bigger issues happen in places like Eastern Jerusalem where formerly Jewish homes had Palestinians move in under Jordanian rule, leading to issues we still deal with today like in Sheikh Jarah. Over time these settlements draw in more and more extremists who want all of the land to be Israel permanently. Meanwhile Palestinian leaders in the land react with incitement to terror, which leads to two intafadas and many terror attacks. These Jewish extremists respond with what are called "price tag" attacks in reaction to Palestinian attacks, just worsening the cycle of violence. In the mid 1990s, the Oslo accords are signed giving Palestinians a government, splitting the West Bank into three sections with varying degrees of autonomy. This led not only to terror from the Palestinian side, but also from the Jewish side who saw it as giving in to the Palestinian and culminated with the assassination of the Israeli prime Minister and the rise of Benjamin Netanyahu. In 2005, Israel withdrew from Gaza and took all the settlers out. The Palestinians in Gaza in turn elected Hamas to represent them as a government which resulted in Israel's blockade on them. They begin to send rockets into Israel on a semi-regular basis. Sometimes it is met with a response, sometimes not.

And this is more or less where we stand today. I hope I gave you some perspective.

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>And who started mass expulsion of the population?

Maybe the Palestinians of Hebron in 1929?

>The expulsion of the arabs happened in a matter of weeks the expulsion of the Jewish population happened over years.

Yeah, it happened over years partially because it happened in many countries. Country 1 expelled them one day and country 2 another.

>And unlike you i acknowledge that uprooting people based on their ethnicity is wrong

I also acknowledge that. That's why I said in my previous comment that the same thing happened. Hence drawing the connection between to two.

Of course not. The only reason for settlement is to get rid of Palestinians, which has already been accomplished.

Nice whitewash.