draggar t1_it264i9 wrote on October 20, 2022 at 12:11 PM

Reply to comment by vermontaltaccount in Why I'm voting yes on Prop 2 & 5 by ButtonFactoryJoe

>Minor nitpick, but I haven't been a big fan of this as the most focused on aspect of the debate; a lot of the pro-lifers use the argument that "it's murder of the baby", and I don't think saying "Well that's the woman's choice" is the proper counter-argument to that.

It's about body autonomy.

I give this example:

Say someone has leukemia and they need a bone marrow transplant to survive. I am their only match as a donor. Should I have 100% say if I will or will not donate marrow?

If I decide not to, does the government have the right to force me to donate marrow? Does the government have the right to create a law to force everyone to donate marrow?

(I use a bone marrow transplant as an example since it is rather intrusive on the donor, can cause harm, and has a recovery period - it's the closest thing (medically) I can think of to pregnancy / birth (other than living organ donation).

It may not be a 100% perfect example and it may be flawed, but, again, it's the closest I can think of.

vermontaltaccount t1_it299vz wrote on October 20, 2022 at 12:39 PM

But the issue is, people who believe "abortion is murder" think that the woman shouldn't have control over the fetus, as they believe it to be a separate person.

It's like how you can't force someone to give marrow to save your own life; the people who believe "abortion is murder" don't think you should force the fetus to die to save the mom.

Thats why I prefer to focus on the "abortion is NOT murder" part of the argument.

eye-brows t1_it2ropa wrote on October 20, 2022 at 2:52 PM

No, I totally get what you're saying.

To be clear, I don't think abortion isn't murder and women should have the right to bodily autonomy, and I will also be voting Yes on both these propositions.

It's weird for me when Republicans ban abortion except for rape or incest. Because if they truly believed abortion was murder, the conception would be irrelevant. Like, if they really think a fetus is a baby, why would they make exceptions? We don't kill actual living, breathing, not-in-the-womb babies born out of rape.

Which tells me they're hypocrites who just want to control women.

kraysys t1_it2u0xc wrote on October 20, 2022 at 3:08 PM

> It's weird for me when Republicans ban abortion except for rape or incest. Because if they truly believed abortion was murder, the conception would be irrelevant. Like, if they really think a fetus is a baby, why would they make exceptions? We don't kill actual living, breathing, not-in-the-womb babies born out of rape.

Pro-lifers generally promote this as a policy because it's very popular among Americans to have a 12-15 week ban with those few exceptions. I agree that it's intellectually inconsistent though. But isn't it also inconsistent for pro-choicers who talk about bodily autonomy and how the fetus isn't a human life to generally want abortion restrictions after 12-15 weeks?

> Which tells me they're hypocrites who just want to control women.

There are millions upon millions of pro-life women. The "controlling women" trope is so tired.

kraysys t1_it2rqaa wrote on October 20, 2022 at 2:53 PM

This is one of the classic arguments in favor of abortion, but it really misses the mark for a number of reasons (as you concede at the end of your comment).

The relationship of a mother to a child is not at all equivalent to a person with leukemia. A child isn't a random disease that pops up, it's a new life that was created by the mother via having sex or IVF.

Additionally, an unborn baby can be removed for medical necessity to save the life of the mother without forcibly terminating it -- e.g. through a C-section or by early labor induction. There is no medically necessary reason when saving the mother to terminate the life instead of removing the unborn baby and trying to keep it alive as well. Etc. etc. etc.