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vermontaltaccount t1_iszsild wrote

Reply to comment by ginguegiskhan in Why I'm voting yes on Prop 2 & 5 by ButtonFactoryJoe

Absolutely. I think a lot of the issue is the desire to have something be "catchy" and "simple". Which is great in theory, but the problem is people often lean towards "catchy and simple" at the detriment of "accurate", and it leads to the alienation of some people who generally agree.

It's a lot easier to say "men shouldn't make a decision on women's bodies" than it is to say "Due to the scientific consensus that life does not begin at conception, this no longer becomes a debate about infringing upon the rights of others, including the unborn fetus; it becomes a body autonomy issue which only impacts women".

Not to mention all the people saying "Men shouldn't make decisions that only impact women" are inadvertently validating the opinions of Amy Coney Barrett; and I do not believe those opinions to be ethically right.

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kraysys t1_it2cz9r wrote

> "Due to the scientific consensus that life does not begin at conception, this no longer becomes a debate about infringing upon the rights of others, including the unborn fetus; it becomes a body autonomy issue which only impacts women"

Source on your "scientific consensus"? Everything I've seen in biology 101 indicates that conception produces a distinct life -- the question is rather whether we ought to give that life moral equivalency to the mother and thus legal protection, and at what stage in its development.

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airhogg t1_it56pmh wrote

Estimates run from 50 to 80 percent, and even some implanted embryos spontaneously abort. The woman might never know she was pregnant.

Assuming that fertilization and implantation all go perfectly, scientists can reasonably disagree about when personhood begins, says Gilbert. An embryologist might say gastrulation, which is when an embryo can no longer divide to form identical twins. A neuroscientist might say when one can measure brainwaves.

https://www.wired.com/2015/10/science-cant-say-babys-life-begins/

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kraysys t1_it59tu7 wrote

Define “abort” as you use it — that’s just simple word obfuscation. A miscarriage (and its medical equivalents) are not the same as an abortion procedure.

Yes, I’ve said multiple times that the question of personhood is a different and much more relevant one. I’ve been specifically arguing about whether it’s a “life” here.

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