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bentoboxing t1_j29npf5 wrote

Reply to comment by DaveOJ12 in TIL that in the early 80s, Dr. Dre was a successful electro DJ with his group World Class Wreckin' Cru. Daft Punk mentions Dre in their song “Teachers,” about artists that influenced them by avec_serif

Just like the doom news, he decided to sell whatever the F we're buying. He was a pawn himself to the industry that was all too happy to push him.

Fake gangster music took over when American music was at a crossroads.

One day it was LL Cool J, De LA Soul and Eric B and Rakim. The next 'Niggas with Attitudes' was getting mainstream airplay across the nation.

It was used to demonize black youth and instill fresh new fear/hate in white America.

To this day violence and ignorance is promoted on radio and internet over all else.

You won't hear anyone intelligent or artistic or enlightened or positive or responsible unless you search for it.

Instead you'll hear mumble drugs and fake gangsters shooting each other for LVMH goods.

Now it's just a life of BS music from fake gangsters with autotune and no ethics 24/7.

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VoodooVedal t1_j29zlux wrote

White people talking about sex, drugs and debauchery in rock and roll: Enlightened and relatable with the grittier side of life

Black people talking about sex, drugs and debauchery in hip hop: Naughty moralless men with autotune

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SoItWasYouAllAlong t1_j2a52m2 wrote

If you'll push political agendas, you'll need to be better than that.

/u/bentoboxing's comment mentioned two things: drugs and violence. Your attempt to spin this into "sex, drugs, and debauchery" completely ignored the "violence" part, and invented a "sex" part, which was never in /u/bentoboxing's original claim.

If we are going to pull groundless arguments out if thin air, why not cabbage? Both gangsta rappers and rock'n'rollers eat cabbage. Clearly that makes them the same.

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VoodooVedal t1_j2a5oxl wrote

They didn't even bring up rock n roll either.... You've obviously completely missed the point here lol

I can make it even easier for you

White people make morally questionable art: gritty and real

Black people make morally questionable art: bad people who should feel shame for their life-choices

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bentoboxing t1_j2agbn4 wrote

Your words. I didn't say any of this at all. I never even mentioned "white" music at all, much less of this era.

How you going to try be upset by what you said?

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VoodooVedal t1_j2amerq wrote

Because you are criticising black music while not holding white music to the same standards. You dont need to specifically say white music is good, just talking shit about black music without doing the same to your beloved metal music is enough

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releasethedogs t1_j2bua8l wrote

Rock music is black music.

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VoodooVedal t1_j2cxklr wrote

This is true, but rock n roll has been assimilated into white culture so much so that rock is more prevalent in white culture these days. It originated through black music 70 years ago, but it isn't the music linked to black culture currently.

Technically most modern popular genres stem from black music like techno, rock, disco, funk and rock n roll. Though these arent as endemic and representative to modern black culture the way hip hop is

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releasethedogs t1_j2e62x6 wrote

> Though these arent as endemic and representative to modern black culture the way hip hop is

That doesn’t make rock music any less black.

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VoodooVedal t1_j2egvuh wrote

In the context that we're speaking of it does, as rock isn't seen as music for black people in the modern day

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bentoboxing t1_j2aoqqc wrote

The topic is Dre in this era. I made no mention of a disdain for "black music". I am clearly and specifically talking about Dre and the first gangster music he made that reached the mainstream.

I didn't mention Indian music either. Am I secretly defending Indian music?

What made you feel that I needed to add "white music" to this unrelated discussion about Dre and his contributions in this era?

You're not even addressing what I'm talking about, just asking, "Well, why are white musicians considered good?"

I never said black musicians are bad. Never said white ones were good.

You did.

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VoodooVedal t1_j2atpo4 wrote

You're really not getting the point here at all...

Gangster rap is black music and you're judging it's moral implications more harshly than you do white music

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bentoboxing t1_j2awhzn wrote

-"You're really not getting the point here at all..."

No you're not getting it and it seems intentional at this point.

-"Gangster rap is black music and you're judging it's moral implications more harshly than you do white music."

Rap music is black, but all black music is not gangster rap.

I in no way judged "Black music" and never even mentioned any other music. How did I compare something I never mentioned?

You added "white music" and you are unfairly lumping all black music in with gangster rap.

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VoodooVedal t1_j2awwsa wrote

Okay, so you're obviously are rather just arguing with whatever, or else really ignorant. So I'm gonna stop trying to teach you about this now

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bentoboxing t1_j2b0z9t wrote

I'm nearly 50 and have been listening to music since before gangster rap existed.

I bought Straight out of Compton,day 1 on cassette. I listened to Digital Underground when Tupac was still a back up dancer. I saw Public Enemy and Anthrax live.

To this day I listen to 32days worth of streaming music alone each year.

What in the fuck do you think you're teaching me about this topic?

Fact: Dre took an opportunity sell self hate to the black community via the music industry and gangster rap. He himself was exploited into doing so. It began a destructive trend of selling luxury products and a violent lifestyle to impressionable and often poor people and packed the for profit prison system.

Aka: Pipeline to prison. (Look it up and learn.)

Why is this hard for you to comprehend? Why are you trying to make it seem like I'm criticising all black music and a culture that I have loved and respected my entire life?

To be clear: You back out of a civil discussion because you have nothing to offer, not because I'm ignorant...

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VoodooVedal t1_j2cxszk wrote

Just because you're old doesn't mean you understand anything. You're obviously completely ignorant to the racist rhetoric that you share because you think you're special that you dont listen to modern hiphop. That's what I was trying to teach you, but now I can see your just a sour old sack who thinks he's right because he's spent so much time being ignorant and arrogant already

I've responded to each bullshit claim you've made so far, I back out because you're an ignorant fool who doesn't want to change his mind, even when he's faced with being wrong

Your points arent hard to comprehend, their logic is flawed. That's your problem. It's not that no ones listening to you, you're just wrong

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bentoboxing t1_j2d00oj wrote

Once again, idiot, I never said that I don't listen to modern hip hop. You just can't help but make shit up.

I know what I saw first hand. My interest is purely in support of the black community that is preyed upon by corporate opportunists with agendas.

Far from being racist. That's just what you wish my brown ass was because you can't understand someone caring about the people and not the music industry that claimes to represent them.

These are not new concepts and literally hundreds of hip hop artists and black leaders have said the same thing for decades.

It's painfully obvious that you don't know jack shit about this topic. Move on.

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VoodooVedal t1_j2d0hgo wrote

Very rich for you to talk about anyone not knowing shit when all you do is pull claims out of your ass and get angry when people tell you why they're wrong. Get over it and move on, you might end up better off after if you try to progress yourself instead of fighting to justify your mistakes

Your interests very obviously don't support the black community when you victim blame them and judge them more harshly than their white counterparts. You're a bullshitter who has no idea what you're talking about

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bentoboxing t1_j2d1rxj wrote

How the fuck is blaming the music industry and their paid agents victim blaming?

No one compared black music to white music, unfairly or not, but you. It was never part of the discussion.

Smdh

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VoodooVedal t1_j2d1ymt wrote

Yet again you fail to understand my point completely, and now I'm sick holding your hand through it like a child. Everything I need to say I've already said. If you have difficulty understanding that, read it again. If you want to cry about it more, I don't care so dont come to me with that shit.

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bentoboxing t1_j2a6nim wrote

Not at all what I said. I never said a thing about white enlightenment or rock being holy and good in comparison.

I listen to the hardest hardcore available in several genres. None of it was on the mainstream charts then and none of it pushes products to their fans like this did (and still does).

The topic is Dre and his genre in this era. I have listened to both rap and metal my entire life so that discussion can also be had if you are interested.

What are some examples of death metal in radio rotation or on the charts in this same era? What is the actual content of their work? Let's compare.

What are some examples of the social and cultural effects of this music on their listeners. What are the favorite guns, drugs, cars and luxury brands of 90 metal bands? How does this compare?

There's a reason you don't know...

There's a reason why 90s kids know gang colors, gun brands and Gucci products.

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VoodooVedal t1_j2abq3b wrote

Everyone knows cocaine is the preferred drug of 90s metal bands, which has grown in popularity immensely since. I could also bring up metal musics fascination with mass murder events which have also grown hugely since the 00s. I wouldn't bring these up though, because its nonsensical to relate metal music to these increases

Art imitates life, and in turn life imitates art. Which is to blame? The answer is life, as these events always occur before the art. Art must relate to life, but life doesn't need to relate to art

Gangster rap was created based on the lifestyle of impoverished black Americans who were forced to live such a way to get by in a society that disadvantages them based on their ethnic background. This gives a marginalised group of society something that they can relate to and feel proud about, instead of constantly having the idea that they are bad people forced down their throats. Regurgitating this idea that gangster rap is morally bad just reinforces the rhetoric that black people should feel shame due to their disadvantaged backgrounds

When white people create art about topics that are morally questionable people can still see it for what it is, art. When black people create art about topics that are morally questionable people try to shame them, as this fits the narrative that pushes the imbalance of power against these marginalised groups.

So to end it all, it wasnt what you said. It was evidently a satirical comment related to the intentions of what you said

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RefurbishingPendejos t1_j2a04ro wrote

Why did I know just from looking at the way you lineated your text that your ideas were going to be garbage.

And lo and behold!

I was right.

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bentoboxing t1_j2a582x wrote

Cool intelligent rebuttal to an informed opinion, formated for easy reading and comprehension.

I couldn't help but notice that you also chunked your text for easier reading. Well done.

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DaveOJ12 t1_j2a4gd6 wrote

"Our art is a reflection of our reality"

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bentoboxing t1_j2a7cf3 wrote

That's not being argued. It remains very true and I can see it and I will defend it to the end.

Story telling from the streets is powerful. Like folk, blue grass, blues and jazz before it, Rap is a powerful form of honest story telling.

Doesn't mean it wasn't used exploitatively to fuck up communities and sell product by some in the industry.

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zkinny t1_j2ck21o wrote

Music, rap in particular, represent reality more than it influences it.

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bentoboxing t1_j2clgrx wrote

Is that so? Rap music is reflective of the black community? How would you describe the black community to someone according to rap music then?

This may have been the case 30+ yrs ago with street corner poets but the industry took over and actively financed the messages they sought to perpetuate.

Which is where we are today.

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zkinny t1_j2csi1l wrote

Yeah I've seen this narrative you're pushing before. But it's not true. It's not the illuminati music execs holding the black community down. If you're from a poor neighborhood and you rap about your life, chances are it's gonna involve some drugs and crime. And there are a bunch of more intellectual/woke black rappers who try to spit a positive message and so on but they almost never make it especially big. Kendrick might be an exception? The music suits can't control what becomes popular, so you can't blame it on them. Rappers will rap about what they see way before they're on a huge label and "controlled".

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