Comments
7LBoots t1_ivkgbst wrote
Even if it was entirely fictional, it wasn't Plato that made it up, right?
Qwez81 t1_ivkgytz wrote
Yea Plato is correct…everything else is ummm speculation at best?
predicateofregret t1_ivlxv3i wrote
Plato said it was based on a story told to a distant relative of his who has travelled in Egypt.
jimmyn0thumbs t1_ivmcbp5 wrote
The original "trust me bro"
vinneh t1_ivmw4tn wrote
My uncle works at Atlantis
LurkJerk55 t1_ivnwbv5 wrote
My canadian girlfriend I'm dating over the internet is from Atlantis
PegaLaMega t1_ivoqsko wrote
My brother's sister used to date Plato. Total jerk-off.
BrokenEye3 t1_ivn6rtf wrote
A friend of a friend swears his friend has a friend whose friend was friends with a friend of a guy who saw it with his own eyes
plugubius t1_ivmnvse wrote
Not quite. Plato had an obviously lying character in a dialogue say he had records (but not with him, of course)
SteakHoagie666 t1_ivm1vo4 wrote
Heroditus actually had a city on his map of the known world named "Atlantes". So the tale was around longer than Plato.
ModeratelyTortoise t1_ivmgad0 wrote
What Plato was told was that it sunk 9000 years before his time
freiwilliger t1_ivm8b5u wrote
That referred to people from Mount Atlas not the mythical island.
SteakHoagie666 t1_ivm9hw8 wrote
It wasn't a mythical island until plato said it was a mythical island. It could've been used as some inspiration for the tale. But who knows.
Torugu t1_ivnxhox wrote
No, not "who knows".
The "Atlantes" are a group of ancient Libyans* who lived in the Atlas mountains. It's not a city, it's a tribe, their history is well established and their descendants are still around today.
The Atlantes are completely unrelated to the mythical Atlanteans. They have literally nothing in common except that their names sound vaguely similar. This is about as close to fact as anything can be.
​
^(*Libya referring here to all of North Africa West of Egypt, not just the modern country)
SteakHoagie666 t1_ivnyb68 wrote
In platos story one of the sons of posieden, Atlas is " made rightful king of the entire island(atlantis) and the ocean (called the Atlantic Ocean in his honor), and was given the mountain of his birth and the surrounding area as his fiefdom."- from Wiki.
So.. I mean... the king of atlantis is named after the mountain range and ruled over the area as his fiefdom.. in platos story... but if you're sure there was no connection and no inspiration whatsoever drawn from it Okey fuckin dokey.
sennbat t1_ivlzorx wrote
It was Plato, yes, in Timaeus, which we still have copies of. You can read a translation of it here: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html
It's possible it was inspired by some other story (in the same way as the places in "Gullivers Travels" are inspired by real places and previous stories, I suppose), but Atlantis itself, and certainly all the details he gives, are clearly created part of the allegory.
BirdUp69 t1_ivmw4kj wrote
I would say the Critias comes across as allegory with regards to Atlantis, describing something like a Utopia. The Timaeus is more matter of fact, describing key historical point passed down through Solon.
Gyddanar t1_ivo3rde wrote
Technically Atlantis wasn´t a utopia - or if it had been, it was a fallen/failed one.
It was set in a fictional time period where everything was just "better". The tone you should be going for while reading Critias and Timaeus is something like "these days, everything is shit".
The utopias in Timaeus are the Mythic/Golden Athens and arguably Egypt (if only as a source of wisdom, knowledge, and learning)
bolanrox t1_ivkh142 wrote
first time it was ever heard of was in an Alagory tale by Plato. its certainly based some what on facts (parts of islands have sunk after earth quakes. etc).
Unless someone gets super lucky like with Troy, this one is going to stay as a myth based off of Plato's writings IMO
howardslowcum t1_ivl1yab wrote
'First time it was heard' is a common statement when referring to Plato. Imagine in 25 years someone writes a fan fic of starwars and 2600 years later people reference that fan fic as the origin of luke skywalker.
thepoopiestofbutts t1_ivlot1i wrote
Or watch star wars and assume it is fanfic of some other franchise?
Gyddanar t1_ivo404k wrote
haha, that is a great example really.
The whole concept of "earliest written evidence" is something that needs to be pushed more when discussing history and so on. I suppose it is entirely possible that some poet had written something about Atlantis that just wasn´t valued enough to survive.
idhtftc t1_ivp7zpg wrote
This makes no sense. If they found that one fanfic, they would also look for corroborating evidence, other scripts, other references, etc. The fact that there is only one place where that name comes up is not definitive evidence, obviously, but it's pretty damning.
howardslowcum t1_ivpls5n wrote
Pre Plato everything operated upon a verbal tradition. Plato himself while a pioneer of literature was highly critical of the written text saying doctors would stop learning medicine and instead just work out of a book.
idhtftc t1_ivpyjmh wrote
Then we would have a contemporary or post-Plato account of an empire that attacked "the whole of Europe and Asia", not just one solitary source for a civilization that controlled parts of Africa and Italy. It's obvious if one just reads the texts that it's an allegory.
howardslowcum t1_ivqcyue wrote
The illiad and the odyssey are only two of six parts of the epic, the remaining four having been lost to history. Remember a 'dark age' does not mean a decline in progress but a loss of that knowledge most likely to purges by an invader. In this example 2400 years from now we have return of the Jedi and the last Jedi as our only extant volumes and the fan fic being the most commonly disseminated piece of literature. Atlantis is the new order, just one of several major antagonist factions presented in the entire narrative.
idhtftc t1_ivqi184 wrote
Except there's literally zero evidence for any such multiple-continent-spanning civilization, and it only appears in the books. I mean, it works with your example, since Star Wars is also fantasy, but that's not what you were saying above, it would be like saying that Star Wars actually happened because we found the fan fiction.
howardslowcum t1_ivqoml1 wrote
I guess im talking about Atlantis being real the way Mordor is real today. If we went back to Greece in 600BC and sat around on a saterday night listening to folks tell stories I bet if you brought up Atlantis they would be like 'I know that place, with the three rings? Home of posidon?'
idhtftc t1_ivrvf7w wrote
Right, and I think we both agree Mordor is not real. I guess I misunderstood the sense of "first time it was heard", I thought it meant something like, "just because Plato is the only written source, it does not mean there weren't oral traditions about it", which might as well be true but cannot really be proven anyway.
Fetlocks_Glistening t1_ivkht3y wrote
Star Trek!? :-O
Robbotlove t1_ivkp7ei wrote
Plato didn't write star trek.
marmorset t1_ivlmnam wrote
Are you sure? His stepchildren appear in the show, that sounds like nepotism.
bombayblue t1_ivmxgs1 wrote
Oh god another “Reddit Historical Conspiracy theory” thread
Let me just state this out loud:
Marco Polo did in fact travel to China.
Shakespeare was a real person, though he may have collaborated with other authors.
Slaves didn’t build the pyramids in Egypt
Christopher Columbus knew the world was round and no he didn’t think the world was pear shaped.
Athens had a vast multiple of potential enemies and did not need to invent a fictional one.
Gyddanar t1_ivo32hr wrote
Having actually studied this and written a paper on it in Uni, there are several bits to unpack re: potential enemies (which is utterly true for Classical Athens to be fair).
A: The "Athens" in the allegory is not Plato´s Athens, but "Mythic Athens". When I say Mythic, I don´t mean heroes and demigods running around messing with mortals. I mean an Athens in which any normal citizen would have held their own in an arm-wrestle with Hercules.
B: A theme running through that particular bit of Timaeus is "Utopia" or the perfect state. Mythic Athens was meant to be a shining example of that perfect state. Atlantis was meant to be a contrast to Utopia - a failed/failing city state which is falling from grace. (There is also a whole thread about Egypt and Athens as a modern contrast - Egypt as the Utopia state and Athens as an analogue for Atlantis - I digress, my professor was a big Egypt fan)
C: This meant that this "Mythic" or "Golden" Athens needed a suitably worthy foe who suffers a suitably fitting end. Athens represented all the worthy human virtues, while Atlantis was in moral depravity. Cue divine smiting - and when the gods smite, they smite hard. Why bring your current enemies into it and need to explain why they´re suddenly so much less impressive? Just make up a fictional city state and sink it when you´re done with it.
D: Using Thebes or Sparta also messes with the whole concept of "Athens used to be great, and now we´re shit and morally bankrupt". Pulls the message off focus.
E: The whole story of Atlantis in the allegory came from an Egyptian priest. Egypt had this whole mystique of "we redefine ancient wisdom" even back in 400-odd BC. Citing random "historical" (bear in mind the concept of history as a science and accurate portrayal of the past, rather than storytelling, would not come around seriously for another couple of centuries) facts as coming from an Egyptian priest is basically the ancient world equivalent of "trust me, I´m a scientist".
EDIT: Disclaimer - I wrote this paper about 10 years ago so memory might be hazy. It only really stuck in my memory because the professor was making a fun class a pain in the ass, and I wanted to ace the final coursework to prove a point.
bombayblue t1_ivopgc6 wrote
This is awesome. Thanks so much for posting it
Gyddanar t1_ivp1gam wrote
so, my professor for that module/class thought Egypt was the best thing ever.
I also did not like him very much.
The coursework/paper at the end of the course was basically about "Utopias in the account about Atlantis in Timaeus". I might have gotten a bit pissed off with him because he worded the question so that "Egypt is a utopia" was a large part of the only "correct" answer.
That annoyance is still with me 10 years later.
Did get one of the best grades I ever received on that essay though. Well... apart from the one essay in which I did a brief experiment to prove my point, then cited myself in an appendix. I think that one was partly points for audacity though.
Qwez81 t1_ivn416u wrote
Couldn’t agree with you more on all of those. My only possible disagreement would be the pyramids bc there’s very skeptical theories they’re older than 4500 years but it’s not a disagreement of slaves building them more of who built them….other than that idk where the “reddit historical conspiracy theory” thing comes from.
largePenisLover t1_ivoikoi wrote
Athens had no need for a fictional enemy. However Plato who lived in Athens DID need a fictional enemy for his fictional version of athens that was 9000 years old in his fiction. A fiction he wrote to describe what he considered to be the ideal city state.
A fiction that is only 2 pages long btw.
If you actually go read the text it's very obvious that it's plato going "a long time ago on an island far far away"
noob_lvl1 t1_ivmaooc wrote
Yeah, I mean what I’ve learned was that Plato was only retelling a story about Atlantis that he heard from someone who was well informed with Egyptian history and lore.
[deleted] t1_ivt1wj2 wrote
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Heroshade t1_ivnm3bt wrote
I mean Atlantis also isn't real, so is it really a problem?
sennbat t1_ivlzz1v wrote
It's as close to fact as you're ever gonna get in history, I don't think history is banned from TIL?
metaldinner t1_ivlihf4 wrote
plato made it up
just because there are cases of islands 'sinking' or the fact that sea levels change, submerging coastal cities, doesnt change the fact that plato made up the story of atlantis.
Kittenfabstodes t1_ivlvsoo wrote
Troy was fictional until it was discovered to be a real place.....js
[deleted] t1_ivt28xq wrote
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Kittenfabstodes t1_ivtkej3 wrote
>we declared everything might have been fictional if we had no physical evidence of it.
Hmmm. Seems strangely familiar.
So what your saying is, if there wasn't physical evidence of it's existence, like Troy or maybe Atlantis, we declared it never existed.
There was no written record about Gobleki Tepe which is probably one of the most important archeological sites in the world and when it was discovered, it changed everything we thought we knew about about man from 12,000 years ago.
All I'm saying is just because we don't have any other written record of Atlantis doesn't mean there weren't written records that didn't survive. It probably didn't exist, but it's not a zero percent chance it didn't exist.
Things like evidence or written records have a tendency being getting lost or being destroyed due to a variety of factors. Plato existed less than 2500 years ago. Gobleki Tepe is 12,000 years old. That's almost 10,000 years in between Gobleki Tepe and Plato. How much has been lost to use since Plato so ask yourself how much has been lost since Gobleki Tepe?
[deleted] t1_ivtmih2 wrote
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Jorge5934 t1_ivm9yux wrote
When was Troy fictional?
Kittenfabstodes t1_ivmiz42 wrote
Before they found it but after it actually existed.
Jorge5934 t1_ivmjnvb wrote
Ah! So you claim it was thought to be fictional, but I guess they looked for it despite your better judgment? The nerve of these people!
Kittenfabstodes t1_ivmk3pb wrote
It was a hundred years or so before I was born, but yes.
Qwez81 t1_ivluu1b wrote
Yea but today I learned should reference facts. Prove he made it up? Prove he didn’t?
sennbat t1_ivlywyb wrote
There is no "proof" when it comes to history - all we have is the balance of evidence. Every decent piece of evidence we have available points to Atlantis (at least the version that became widely known and survived into the modern day) being a piece of fiction created by Plato as a rhetorical advice.
Evidence:
Atlantis appears in Timaeus and Critias, works by Plato, as an allegory and express fiction.
There is no earlier reference to Atlantis we have ever discovered.
All references to Atlantis we are familiar with from the time period after Plato seem to be referring directly back to his work.
Plato making Atlantis up is about as close to a fact as you can get, historically speaking. It is the most likely situation based on what we know, and there's no evidence to the contrary.
[deleted] t1_ivt2fw7 wrote
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_Abe_Froman_SKOC t1_ivkgvaq wrote
There's another story that Aristotle (student of Plato) used the story of Atlantis during his education of Alexander the Great. He used the story as a parable to teach that all glory, no matter how great, was fleeting and could vanish at any time.
DarkNinjaPenguin t1_ivkmkb2 wrote
Basically there are as many stories about who thought up Atlantis, as there are stories about Atlantis.
CAPTAIN_DIPLOMACY t1_ivkol73 wrote
Not really, it's fairly well settled that Aristotle got the parable from Plato's work. And that Plato as the originator made it up.
DevilsWelshAdvocate t1_ivm7mts wrote
Its not well established he made it up, he claims to have heard it from a distant relative who had travelled to Egypt. To say it is well established as made up is a farce based on incomplete data
Unlimitles t1_ivmjv0q wrote
thank you for fighting against this clear purposeful misinformation.....there seems to be a real push of it.
CAPTAIN_DIPLOMACY t1_ivnu3x0 wrote
How is it misinformation, citations please.
BirdUp69 t1_ivmxv6v wrote
To clarify: Plato heard it from Solon. Solon is well regarded as a key figure in Ancient Philosophy. And it was well within his capabilities at the time to travel to Egypt to visit with the priest at Sais. Interestingly, Sais is also claimed as the place Paris and Helen eloped to, but were sent home, the Egyptians realising the problems they were bringing with them.
beachedwhale1945 t1_ivn89i0 wrote
Herodotus, the Father of Lies, claimed to have heard all his stories from other people. Just because someone said “I heard it from reliable sources” doesn’t mean it’s accurate, especially since the Plato descriptions are part of a philosophical discussion about the perfect society with Atlantis playing the part of the opposite of the ideal Athens and it’s a very safe bet that Plato’s account is fiction.
Kalglodril t1_ivo12ni wrote
"He" never claimed anything. A fictional character in one of his fictional dialogues claimed that he heard it from a pseudo-fictional relative in a fictional anecdote.
Plato's Timaeus is the first instance of Atlantis being mentioned in any Greek text, which as a historical culture rehashes or discusses older stories is relatively remarkable and heavily implies that Plato was the originator of the myth.
DevilsWelshAdvocate t1_ivo3mxf wrote
Everything is fictional if you don’t know the facts. We’re talking about a time where extremely little was written down, let alone maintained and kept for todays world to see and understand. You can make your presumptions and perhaps are more likely to be correct than I, but there could be more to this, such as the timespan being in line with the younger dryas in the story, a crazy incredible coincidence?
Kalglodril t1_ivo44az wrote
No, those are literal fictional. Timaeus is a Platonic dialogue, it's fictional.
These are not presumptions, this is based in literature. Timaeus (the text where this was first mentioned) and its relationship to myth was the subject of my Undergraduate dissertation and then I wrote a further 40'000 words on Platonic dialogues in my research based MLitt. I severely doubt you have read as much primary or secondary academic literature concerning Plato.
DevilsWelshAdvocate t1_ivo47xf wrote
Conveniently leaving out the year lining up to the younger dryas period huh, I wonder why..
sennbat t1_ivlzail wrote
... are there? There's really just... the one. No one who came after Plato could have thought it up (because we know Plato did) and anyone who came before him that thought it up never mentioned it as far as we have evidence of.
There's really only the one, lol.
AlaskanTroll t1_ivl2kqi wrote
Yo. Today I learned you can just post whatever you want in, today I learned. Let’s learn FACT and not made up nonsense.
Ofabulous t1_ivlp9t3 wrote
If you read Plato’s Public instead of the heavily editorialised Re-Public then you can see that Atlantis was actually just a large shopping centre between Crete and the Trojans
BrokenEye3 t1_ivm1uol wrote
I prefer the annotated version, the Nota Re-Public
tugnasty t1_ivmkc54 wrote
Heresy. There's only One Republic.
SlimmThiccDadd t1_ivmpa27 wrote
Yes, but if you read Plato’s “Pub” then you can see Atlantis was actually just a bar.
6xydragon t1_ivpnpqo wrote
I prefer Plato's 'Pluto" that says it is is a dwarf planet
BaconReceptacle t1_ivtli6b wrote
That is a good one, but I really like Plato's "Pubic" about a rocket to Uranus.
HulkPower t1_ivos0jo wrote
What about The Publical?
jar1967 t1_ivkv8vn wrote
Santorini disagrees
TheNovemberist t1_ivlbax7 wrote
Santorini is Atlantis - I went to a for profit museum on the island that proved it and until I go to another museum disproving it that’s what I’m going with.
bayesian13 t1_ivm1ju0 wrote
agree. also this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis
"While present-day philologists and classicists agree on the story's fictional character,[9][10] there is still debate on what served as its inspiration. Plato is known to have freely borrowed some of his allegories and metaphors from older traditions, as he did, for instance, with the story of Gyges.[11] This led a number of scholars to investigate possible inspiration of Atlantis from Egyptian records of the Thera eruption,[12][13] the Sea Peoples invasion,[14] or the Trojan War.[15]"
Thera eruption = Santorini.
tomcalgary t1_ivlj6qx wrote
It is clearly stated that Atlantis is past the pillars of hercules aka the rock of Gibraltar. There is a site in Spain that is a current possibility.
EndoExo t1_ivkjdze wrote
Just warning you, OP, you're about to get flamed by a bunch of idiots who listened to quacks on Joe Rogan.
Lausn t1_ivlzcz2 wrote
As a student of philosophy, and not someone that listens to Joe Rogan, this is not a 'fact'. Plato described Atlantis based off of a the word of a relative. He didn't 'make it up' as he did, say, The Cave or The Republic. Instead he was recounting something he heard. This doesn't mean Atlantis as we think of it is actually real, but that Plato didn't just make it up to prove a point, because he is normally very explicit with the things he does make up.
Thenidhogg t1_ivmhsxu wrote
okay so Melville didn't "come up" with moby dick because he worked on a whaling boat? you really committed to that?
everyone has experiences nobody 'comes up' with anything if you're gonna be that strict about it.
plato wrote it down first so he 'made it up' or whatever.
nobody is suggesting it is some kind of hard core deductive Fact needed for launching a space shuttle...
Lausn t1_ivy9aqz wrote
What in the hell did I just read... you ok bud?
WankerMcDoogle t1_ivkrtdu wrote
Had a friend start religiously listening to JRE and I just can't stand talking to him anymore about anything. Literally cult like faith in the idiot named Joe Rogan.
CaptainObvious t1_ivkvjrs wrote
Can the flat earthers find Atlantis?
PDRugby OP t1_ivlam8k wrote
I really appreciate this warning- I had no idea what I was wading in to here, and couldn't figure out why I has getting so much hate for what (I thought) was a pretty well established fact.
aftershane t1_ivkvs8g wrote
You talking about the conspiracy theorists that turned out to be right when they got proof of a massive crater under the ice caps in Greenland that when hit by an asteroid would have melted the caps and caused an unbelievable rise in sea levels?
EndoExo t1_ivkyp8b wrote
I found one.
aftershane t1_ivl1vor wrote
;)
jagnew78 t1_ivl8sh9 wrote
as usual there is a mix of truth with the lies. the Hiawatha impact event hit Greenland at a time when Greenland, and all the arctic was ice free and a balmy tropical forest.
There were no ice caps to melt, and no sea levels to rise because of non-existent ice already being melted into the ocean millions of years ahead of the Hiawatha impact.
bolanrox t1_ivlju6l wrote
there was a dinosaur found in Antarctica. Dinosaur train taught me this
IDropFatLogs t1_ivl45ju wrote
Shhh they don't like the facts
EndoExo t1_ivl53kf wrote
You want facts? That crater is 58 million years old.
RealJonathanBronco t1_ivmqd3b wrote
That's not true, they just won the World Series in 2019.
PDRugby OP t1_ivlc2ii wrote
So I did not expect the vehement responses here, but as another commenter pointed out, this topic was apparently covered on the Joe Rogan Experience and disagrees with what I have posted here.
While I did post this as a "fact", it is evidently disputed, and so in lieu of being able to edit the title, please add "Many Scholars Believe that..." to the beginning of my post when you read it.
maciver6969 t1_ivln7vf wrote
I agree there is just too much unknown to call it definitive fact, but most of the scholars are just using occum's razor to explain it. They have said that about a great many previously thought to be fiction, so I hold judgement back.
DonutCola t1_ivn6ftc wrote
Don’t fucking listen to the idiots telling you to listen to joe rogan as their argument
[deleted] t1_ivli430 wrote
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sennbat t1_ivm0byv wrote
People dispute that the holocaust happened, the existence of dispute isn't what I'd go by in terms of wondering whether something happened, historically.
DevilsWelshAdvocate t1_ivm7s07 wrote
What relevance does that hold here?
sennbat t1_ivmajzr wrote
Just pointing out that "thing is disputed" is not a good reason to stop treating it like a fact, by itself, and providing an example.
hudson2_3 t1_ivmguap wrote
But which one is the fact in what has been posted here? That Plato invented Atlantis, or that he didn't? There is no conclusive proof either way.
sennbat t1_ivmiari wrote
There's no conclusive proof of anything in history, only preponderance of evidence.
And the preponderance of evidence is that Plato invented Atlantis. It first historical appearance is in Timaeus, where it is explicitly allegorical, among other fictional accounts. His student, Aristotle, explicitly talks about it being a fictional account used to make a philosophical point. Even Athens, which is a real place, is pretty explicitly fictionalized for the story.
There is zero mention of Atlantis anywhere in history prior to Plato's description, despite him describing a place that absolutely would have been worthy of mention. The sources that talk about it after he died all point to him as the originator of the tale. The things that happen in the story are also, y'know, literally physically impossible.
hudson2_3 t1_ivmjx7f wrote
We can say that the preponderance of evidence is that Plato came up with the story which uses Atlantis as an example of things not lasting. In a time when very little was written down we have no way of knowing where he got his ideas from.
Comparing that to an event that was filmed is bonkers.
GeneralNathanJessup t1_ivmh4lb wrote
For thousands of years, the "historians" said the exact same thing about Troy. But it was there, right where Plato said it was. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy
PDRugby OP t1_ivmigpj wrote
Do... do you think that Plato wrote the Illiad?
tugnasty t1_ivmkg79 wrote
It was written by Homer but dictated by Marge.
Rhodog1234 t1_ivmpj09 wrote
Cowabunga !
DLM4473 t1_ivmlwkg wrote
I'm confused as to what point you think you're making ?
PDRugby OP t1_ivmxo0y wrote
That the other commenter said Troy was exactly where Plato said it was. Troy, the city most famously described in the Iliad, which was written 400 years before Plato lived, was destroyed 400 years prior to that, and that (as far as I can tell) Plato has zero connection to and most certainly did not explain the location of.
DLM4473 t1_ivn009j wrote
>(as far as I can tell) Plato has zero connection to
A number of people (Strabo being the first) have proposed that Pluto's story of Atlantis was a retelling of the Trojan War.
>and most certainly did not explain the location of
You sure about that ?
Do . . . Do you think trying to belittle someone's comment was a little premature and arrogant ?
Kussypat t1_ivnvm1u wrote
>You sure about that ?
Yes. That's the Iliad. Plato had nothing to do with the Iliad. Plato has nothing to do with the location of Troy either.
ComprehensiveCat2472 t1_ivmx4rt wrote
That Plato didn’t write the Iliad??
DLM4473 t1_ivmyqub wrote
And Homer Simpson didn't write the Bible - but then nobody said he did !
ComprehensiveCat2472 t1_ivmytf1 wrote
The guy he’s replying to literally said he did…
DLM4473 t1_ivn0hip wrote
You need to literally look up what literally means !
ComprehensiveCat2472 t1_ivn0ujh wrote
You need to reach the reading comprehension of a third grader, OC said “just where Plato said it would be” about Troy, when the ancient texts that reference Troy, the Iliad and the Odyssey, were definitely not written by Plato.
DLM4473 t1_ivn1sok wrote
And at no point did the OC say they were written by Plato ! Did nobody reference Troy after Homer ?
Do you need to look up comprehension as well ?
ComprehensiveCat2472 t1_ivn2ila wrote
Plato never described where Troy is… OC is an Atlantis believer who just pulled the name of the one Greek writer he knows out of his ass. Atlantis is an allegory invented by Plato.
DLM4473 t1_ivn2oj5 wrote
Argue it with Strabo !
ComprehensiveCat2472 t1_ivneb75 wrote
You started this chain jfc
Toloc42 t1_ivo31j1 wrote
I'm surprised at this comment section.
Usually right wing cultists will go for Lemuria as their chosen esoteric sunk island Utopia. Since they can make up way more random nonsense about it.
The historical truth behind Atlantis doesn't go beyond "natural disasters have destroyed islands"
There is NO evidence of Atlantis being anything but an allegory made by Plato. The references to it being based on ancient writings passed on through the millennia are made by, you may have guessed it, Plato himself.
He made up a debate among four guys, half of them likely entirely fictional, all of them in any case dead for 50 years at that point. He has them discuss how to make up a totally awesome society. One of them he has tell the others about an island empire that the guy read about in writings by another guy, who lived about 120 years before the debate. And who read about these in ancient histories that were thousands of years old when he visited Egypt. There is no evidence of either of those writings actually existing in any shape at any time.
That's about four levels of framing. Kinda like the beginning of Grand Budapest Hotel.
And that just what Atlantis is, it's a framing device to strengthen a point.
There is no evidence going beyond Plato.
The "history of Atlantis" reached Plato the same way from ancient sources as The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings were passed to Tolkien through Bilbo and Frodo Baggins.
NemosGhost t1_ivtiw8c wrote
>Usually right wing cultists
Wtf does "right wing" have to do with anything here?
Also, most people claimed Troy was entirely fictional until it was actually found.
WormswithteethKandS t1_ivqzoqx wrote
As the legends of Númenor?
jkj90 t1_ivlxtp4 wrote
It was likely both a piece of pro-Athenian propaganda and an allegory to allow for philosophical exercises created by Plato at a time of conflict among the Greek city states, the Peloponnesean War. The Atlanteans, no matter how advanced, were doomed to be destroyed when they tried to mess with Athens and the will of the gods. They were probably loosely based on the Minoans and eruption of the Thira/Santorini 1200 years prior. It was one of the biggest eruptions in history that helped to greatly re-shape early Bronze Age cultures around the Mediterranean-- just long enough prior to dance that line of vague cultural memory and fantastic myth.
Source: Classics & Ancient Mediterranean Studies and History double major/ lifelong Greek history nerd
David_Umstattd t1_ivlztm2 wrote
This is A theory though right? We don’t know precisely what the deal with Atlantis is right?
AnimorphsGeek t1_ivmy0l6 wrote
That's what they want you to believe!
Reign-exe t1_ivky284 wrote
We're never going to know the truth. Did a civilization like Atlantis exist but was destroyed, maybe. Is it possible Plato made it up in his writings, maybe. Someone commented that unless someone finds evidence like Troy, we will never know and it will always be speculation.
miss_kateya t1_ivnthl0 wrote
Plato heard the story after it had been passed down among humans for 8000 years since the Lanteans returned to Earth from the Pegasus galaxy.
Fudelan t1_ivli0dm wrote
I think it is cultural memory of what happened to Santorini. I was there I saw the ruins and half an island missing
big_huge_big t1_ivlq335 wrote
Based on Platos description, there are places that fit the description. Plate tectonics was fringe theory not that long ago. I dont think anybody should discredit one side or the other on this one. Neither can be proven
EdofBorg t1_ivmsp2g wrote
You heard or read. You didn't learn.
Standard_Incident_26 t1_ivnz1eu wrote
TIL this is not actually an educational subreddit.
[deleted] t1_ivkkrbl wrote
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Alternative-Job-2481 t1_ivli91f wrote
When reading a wikipedia article it's important to remember that nearly anyone with enough patience can contribute. Long enough for you or I to read the article and be misinformed.
(I recently found some wildly racist information under the topic of some non-human hominid that said that people from Indonesia had the most genes from that non-human species and even had a picture of some Indonesian children. Some Homo Sapien children. This particular hominid existed over a million years ago, which is ancient in human evolutionary terms - far too old to be relevant to the modern day.)
marmorset t1_ivlnsdt wrote
When my son was in third or fourth grade he had to do a project on trees and one of the sites we were looking at was discussing oak trees and using terms I wasn't familiar with. We went to Wikipedia to see if the information was a little more clear, and someone had written that oak trees were feared by other trees because they were rapists. It was one of those things where you do a double-take, you're not sure you read what you just read.
sennbat t1_ivm0ol8 wrote
Yeah, but uh... for this particular fact its not particularly debatable, we actually have the primary sources.
Alternative-Job-2481 t1_ivpbx4j wrote
Saying it's a work of fiction is stating Plato's intent in creating the story. It's possible it's a work of fiction, or a severe exaggeration, but we're still discovering ancient cities, for example the major northern trading port of Heracleion which sank underwater most likely due to soil liquefaction. Saying Atlantis is a work of fiction is imo a bit bold of a statement.
sennbat t1_ivpja8k wrote
At the very least you recognize it is first found in an explicit work of fiction, right?
Alternative-Job-2481 t1_ivpli65 wrote
>it is first found in an explicit work of fiction
I'm not saying it did or didn't exist, but real, fictional, and somewhere in between places are frequently referenced in works of fiction.
I hate to bring up so obvious an example (but we're reaching the limit of my education) - Homer (or "Homer") frequently narrated obviously fictional stories set in real places. The story being a work of fiction does not mean that Plato didn't base the places in it on real places or places he thought were real.
Anyway I do see your point, we can agree to disagree. I would argue this is far from resolved, and you're clearly skeptical of something kind of far fetched found in an story that had no real requirement for being anything other than entertainment :).
AbbyRitter t1_ivljuda wrote
We got the Atlantis true believers in tonight folks, enjoy. It's the flat earthers tomorrow, so be sure to stick around. Anyone want popcorn?
Faustt_Thee_Artist t1_ivmdqy0 wrote
Don’t tell the guys over at r/Atlantis this though.
crashbaniasian t1_ivmft7q wrote
Whaaaat?? You mean it wasn't an Aztec city state??
sirdiamondium t1_ivmjxfn wrote
Just imagine how you’ll feel after listening to the Jeff Mills masterpiece X-103
jeffyoulose t1_ivmqxq1 wrote
I thought it was because the Atlanteans wanted to conquer heaven and travel to the land of the Gods in the far west and they were destroyed by the God for their hubris. But some of the faithfuls survived by climbing to the peak of the island that still exists to this day as a rocky outcrop in the Atlantic.
mad_mesa t1_ivmv6n7 wrote
The Monstertalk podcast had a great episode about this subject with Dr Ken Feder.
RealHonest-Ish_352 t1_ivn204s wrote
He made it up! He made it up!
Alan_Smithee_ t1_ivn3fm7 wrote
That just makes me think of the Donovan song.
Or the Famed lost city of Atlanta.
thedugsdanglies t1_ivnt8m8 wrote
Richat structure matches platos description perfectly
dubCeption t1_ivof6b4 wrote
I thought Thoth built Atlantis.
kiwisrkool t1_ivog2ba wrote
Disinformation by the master!
greengo07 t1_ivon060 wrote
it has continually astounded and baffled me that people seem to just ignore the fact that Plato made it up. says so right there in the Timaeus.
YoureHereForOthers t1_ivopoam wrote
The OG troll
SilverhandHarris t1_iwi76t6 wrote
But wasn't it referenced far before plato?
Yeah Solon. Over 300 years earlier
KStrock t1_ivm7rla wrote
“Our Fake History” podcast + Atlantis = win
aykavalsokec t1_ivkzk7s wrote
There are a lot of indications that the story was indeed true.
The "sinking" of Atlantis coinciding with the end of the Younger Dryas and the use of myths in Platos other dialogues are the main ones.
ImNickValentine t1_ivmjf7s wrote
There is a very real natural structure near where Plato describes called The Eye of Africa. I’ve seen a documentary that outlines the theory. Here’s some info on it.
https://earthlymission.com/eye-of-the-sahara-richat-structure-lost-city-of-atlantis/
HPmoni t1_ivkuoc3 wrote
Get off Reddit, Disney!
ipsdirtleg t1_ivlr1n9 wrote
The story of Atlantis comes way before Plato though, right? Like way way before Plato. I’m like 99% sure Plato didn’t invent Atlantis. I thought Plato’s grandfather told him the story of Atlantis. And his grandfather told him it was thousands of years before his time. And weren’t civilizations talking about Atlantis thousands of years before Plato? I’m confused.
sennbat t1_ivm11lf wrote
No, there isn't a single reference to Atlantis prior to Plato. And in the work in which he introduced it it is very obviously not intended to be taken as factual history, anymore than Tatooine is supposed to be thought of as an actual historical place
dubCeption t1_ivof4gz wrote
The Emerald Tablets.
sennbat t1_ivorxhl wrote
The oldest texts in the hermetica (of which the emerald tablet is part) are still only estimated to be, at their oldest, written over a hundred years after Plato died, and the earliest version of the Emerald Tablet we're aware of we have only been able to trace back to an even more recent era, several hundred years afterwards. Even if we assume the traditions on which the hermetica were base are and much older we are left with, and this is perhaps the most dire problem - they don't actually mention Atlantis or anything like it.
dubCeption t1_ivvdzk4 wrote
i don't think we're discussing the same emerald tablets. the one's i'm referring to were supposedly written by Thoth around 36,000 bc.
sennbat t1_ivvi1om wrote
No, we're discussing the same emerald tablets. It's where we get the phrase "As above, so below" from. I've heard (from rather unreliable sources) that there are mythical versions from 36,000 bc thing as well, but, and this is important, we have never actually found them. Nor do we have any ancient historical sources that mention them existing. We do have multiple copies, but the oldest we have is from 800ad (found in the Sirr al-khalīqa wa-ṣanʿat al-ṭabīʿa) - which is in itself odd, because supposedly they were part of the hermetica from the beginning, but the previous thousand years of copies we have of the hermetica don't have them.
But the thing about mythical not yet found things is that they don't actually work as evidence of anything.
And all of this is of course ignoring the significantly larger problem that the Emerald Tablet doesn't mention Atlantis.
Here's the entire contents, seriously tell me what any of this has to do with Atlantis:
> Tis true without lying, certain and most true.
> That which is below is like that which is above and that which is above is like that which is below
> to do the miracle of one only thing
> And as all things have been and arose from one by the mediation of one: so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation.
> The Sun is its father, the moon its mother,
the wind hath carried it in its belly, the earth is its nurse.
> The father of all perfection in the whole world is here.
> Its force or power is entire if it be converted into earth.
> Separate thou the earth from the fire,
> the subtle from the gross
> sweetly with great industry.
> It ascends from the earth to the heaven and again it descends to the earth
and receives the force of things superior and inferior.
> By this means you shall have the glory of the whole world and thereby all obscurity shall fly from you.
> Its force is above all force,
> for it vanquishes every subtle thing and penetrates every solid thing.
> So was the world created.
> From this are and do come admirable adaptations where of the means is here in this.
> Hence I am called Hermes Trismegist, having the three parts of the philosophy of the whole world.
> That which I have said of the operation of the Sun is accomplished and ended.
dubCeption t1_ivzd1x3 wrote
That is not even close to the entirety of the tablets. There are 15. Thoth is an Atlantean. The first tablet talks about Atlantis and #14 describes Atlantis. emerald tablets.
sennbat t1_ivztlwg wrote
These... were written in 2006.
That's a little bit more recent than Plato.
dubCeption t1_ivzdhu5 wrote
Ohhh i see now. You're talking about the emerald TABLET of hermes the thrice born. Could be Thoth reincarnated but I'm thinking of the much older tablets(plural).
ipsdirtleg t1_ivn2hcg wrote
Yeah, sry. Downvote me all you want guys. In Platos own words, his grandfather told him about the story of Atlantis. And there are lots of writings about an “Atlantis” long before Plato. It’s an easy google. But whatever. Plato is the inventor of Atlantis. Lmao!
sennbat t1_ivn2z40 wrote
> And there are lots of writings about an “Atlantis” long before Plato.
If they're so easy to google why not, I dunno... bring one up?
> In Platos own words, his grandfather told him about the story of Atlantis.
Bro, do you even understand how fiction works lmfao
ipsdirtleg t1_ivn3svi wrote
Bro, lol, people were talking about “Atlantis” thousands of years before Plato. Just like the story of Jesus had been told by multiple cultures hundreds of years before the Christian Jesus. Chill bro…
sennbat t1_ivn490w wrote
Provide a single example of anyone talking about Atlantis at any point prior to Plato. You said there are lots of those writings. Share just one.
ipsdirtleg t1_ivn6n8t wrote
Is google really that hard for you to use?
sennbat t1_ivn8650 wrote
Apparently, since I can't find any. Or maybe, just maybe, your many examples don't actually exit! Gee, I wonder which is more likely.
ajewtoldjimmy t1_ivn9xjp wrote
This definitely isn't fact. Plato heard the story from his grandpa who heard it from another Athenian. Delete this.
PsychoKali t1_ivlxb3q wrote
Actually incorrect. I dont claim to know the true origin of the story, but Plato got it from the egyptians. Then him and a bunch of others spread it. There is most likely basis to the legend (although like any legend, heavily exaggerated) and there are events during the time period matching such a disaster. And people with heavy imaginations, as used to be in that time matched the disaster to their beliefs. For example, Cousteau thought the minoic stuff fit the bill.
Unlimitles t1_ivmjkif wrote
lol a "fake enemy"
the misinformation to keep people dumbed down is Hilarious at this point.
"fake enemy" Lol
All you have to do is read about Socrates's trial and you'll know this is nonsense. there is No way, Socrates knew the "gods" weren't real.
So Plato wouldn't have ever said "that lost the favour of the gods and was sunk into the sea"
it would go against his line of sense as he presented it, and his line of sense involves that Socrates knew the Gods were fake and attempted to turn the youth against the "gods of the state"
So....how would it be a fake enemy for Athens? Athens would know that their gods were fake and used as tools to control people with, Plato would know that, so why would he write about it as a Fake enemy?
if that's the case then there should be evidence of the Gov of the time retaliating against the Idea to stop it's spread.
Fatalis_Drakk t1_ivks4hg wrote
I think Atlantis was a whole culture that was destroyed by Hubris.
Mysticpoisen t1_ivmrf78 wrote
That is the story that Plato made up, yes.
h1c253 t1_ivki0gg wrote
There are a lot of good podcasts that spend time on Atlantis and where it could have possibly been. Interesting to say the least. I know Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock spend some time on it during JRE.
EndoExo t1_ivkj4np wrote
Sacred geometrist Randall Carlson and unstable journalist turned pseudoscientist Graham Hancock. The best sources for archeological opinions.
CAPTAIN_DIPLOMACY t1_ivkqa31 wrote
Hancock is a prattling fantasist
[deleted] t1_ivksy7i wrote
[deleted]
ChoosyLooseGoose t1_ivkno2y wrote
Speculation on the history of a possible fictional place by those who know because….they read it on the internet. Now it’s fact.
Edit: also, this is Wikipedia. This site is a known politically (and historical) joke and the moderators erase history consistently, as has been noted over the last few years. Only certain concepts and political ideologies are allowed and this is why Wikipedia is now essentially a joke (unless looking for generic basic info, and even then one has to go through revision history of a given article to be able to see the changes, who made the changes and then the partisan affiliations become clear.
We do not embrace history, we erase it and imagine it never happened.
CAPTAIN_DIPLOMACY t1_ivkrunf wrote
There are no references to Atlantis before Plato, there's all kinds of speculation about whether he heard about it from an existing story of the verbal tradition but that's highly unlikely. Erego academically applying occams razor, we stick to the most likely scenario, that an author of fiction made up a fictional location.
Timbofieseler102 t1_ivksrx6 wrote
Don’t even bother. Some people on Reddit legit believe Atlantis was real and some mega powerful kingdom. I was once DM’d after a thread was locked and the bozo tried to explain to me how Atlantis was actually a kingdom for hundreds of thousands of years and they had technology that still can’t be matched today
Edit: lol the dork loosegoose went through my comments and responded to me in a different thread about how Wikipedia is woke BS
ChoosyLooseGoose t1_ivkw48k wrote
I hit your name and saw you defending a position using…..Wikipedia.
Hope you got a cookie with that booster….
##Gangstalking! It’s what’s for dinner…
Timbofieseler102 t1_ivkxbgd wrote
Lol why is you being against vaccines the least surprising thing I am seeing today?
ChoosyLooseGoose t1_ivkxpiu wrote
Booster - citing Wikipedia. But…you’ve absorbed that language too and are using it to defend a position in yourself and to others too ignorant to give thought to the flow of a chat thread.
Guess you’ve been affected by the idiocy of the last three years and missed the most recent SNL skit mocking masks and COVID?
CattleNo2695 t1_ivkyr5g wrote
🤓
ChoosyLooseGoose t1_ivkzcon wrote
👌🏼🍆
Edit: when the user above and below blocks you because their only goal is functionality inside of a social experiment within which they are among the vessels working toward social division. Oh, and they are just pathetic enough to earn a living being a social media “influencer”. This…job…is as pathetic as it sounds and is a passing fancy. Unemployment or real job within 5 years but…don’t stop buying your video games just yet! It’s only midterms.
CattleNo2695 t1_ivkzgym wrote
🤓
[deleted] t1_ivksss2 wrote
[removed]
Qwez81 t1_ivkfw9h wrote
Are you trying to pass this off as a fact? Because it seems like you’re trying to pass this off like it’s a fact.