great_auks t1_j6aj1vs wrote
>When our kid was a newborn it was all me though. It was me changing the diapers and me feeding throughout the night and me trying to keep up on everything with the kid and everything else. I very clearly remember that but it’s been 7 years almost and it doesn’t matter now.
​
>I didn’t mean it.
I can't see how both of these can be true. If you feel that way you did mean it, you just feel bad you said it.
Londonforce t1_j6ar5g5 wrote
I mean, notwithstanding that she admitted that specific part isn't true, newborn phase is gonna be like 15% of the first three years. She's wrong no matter what, even if it's an exaggeration
[deleted] OP t1_j6aldui wrote
I suppose that is true. He did change some diapers and he did feed our kid when they were a baby. But it was definitely mostly me. However my issue is that I shouldn’t have said it regardless. It was mostly unprovoked. I said it out of spite and anger for today and for mostly no reason. He didn’t directly say something offensive to me but I guess I took offense because he said he buys our son the best things but I took it as them saying I don’t provide for our kid too.
psibomber t1_j6au1zi wrote
What's wrong with it being mostly you, if he still helped out? I feel like television programming, social media, and entertainment tries to drop these points of contention to make both men and women really angry and discontent about nothing.
It's harmful to marriages, it's harmful to co-parenting, and it's created a lot of hurt and abuse to kids and the adults they grow up into.
You aren't in a race to provide, and you aren't in a race to change the most diapers. Every couple can work something out that makes them the most content.
hmbritt t1_j6b5ah5 wrote
Hmmm... She didn't specify whether she was a stay-at-home mom or not. If she was a stay-at-home mom, I suppose there's nothing wrong with it being mostly her... However, if she's also working too, (which nowadays a good portion of mothers are) then that's what's wrong with it. If both parents are working then he should have gotten his ass up in the middle of the night and helped too!
And breastfeeding moms have it worse, not only do they go to work, during breaks, they have to pump their milk for the baby, instead of enjoying and relaxing their break.
hmbritt t1_j6b5o0l wrote
Forgot to add, op didn't mention she was a breastfeeding mom. I was just throwing that out there, in case she was one.
Eldryanyyy t1_j6chqtm wrote
Or because women get maternal leave, and fathers get nothing, so even if they both have jobs the system gives mothers more time with the baby.
ProbablyNotADuck t1_j6dbg5v wrote
This isn't true in many countries at this time.
Men can get parental leave a lot of places, and, usually, the length of time that can be taken off for a new child (whether that child was birthed or adopted) can be split between either parent.
Eldryanyyy t1_j6dh7nx wrote
In the vast, vast majority of countries the law gives women more time. I can’t think of a single country where it’s equal.
Men often get one month in western countries. In asia, my colleagues have been at work when their wife gave birth.
ProbablyNotADuck t1_j6dix20 wrote
Canada. Either parent is able to take the leave. Mom or dad. It doesn’t matter which parent takes it; they can even split it. All that matters is they cannot go beyond the allotted amount of time.
You have never heard of Canada?
This is also the same in the UK. Finland as well. Lithuania. Japan. Sweden. Estonia. Iceland. Slovenia. Norway….
Editing to add: also, it makes sense, regardless, that the person giving birth is the one to get time off no matter what because a baby only exits the body through two ways… both of which require recovery time. Even for easy births, there’s still soreness and blood for days. One of my friends tore so badly that she wasn’t even able to walk for a week and a half, and it took her nearly two months to return to a pace that was more than a shuffle.
Eldryanyyy t1_j6dtx7i wrote
In japan that is not the case. I worked in japan last year, and know firsthand that women are allotted more than men. It sounds like half your post is likely BS. I can’t be arsed to check, but even if the rest of your countries listed are accurate, that is about 2.5% of the world’s population.
As I said, in the vast majority of the world, women get more time than men…
Time off for maternity leave is not related to any pregnancy injury. It’s longer than typical recovery times. So, the edit is irrelevant.
ProbablyNotADuck t1_j6dv7ap wrote
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/04/04/national/social-issues/child-care-leave-law-amendment/
So you talked to HR and got all of the nuances? Or you just made assumptions based on what you saw? Because I seriously doubt you spent a lot of time with new parents discussing how they planned to allocate their leave. Because law grants either parent in Japan leave. Way to not know what you’re talking about.
You know that there are also countries that don’t even give any time off, right? And that in countries where there aren’t specific guidelines, it is up to employers to determine policies. Was I supposed to go over labour laws for all 195 countries in the world? If I don’t, are you just going to continue to try to claim I have no argument?
Eldryanyyy t1_j6dwdpf wrote
The law you’re discussing wasn’t only passed recently, but holds little ground in japan where building relationships at work trumps legal technicalities. Most men still won’t take the leave, or face consequences, while women will not face those consequences.
China offers 98 days to women, up to 15 days for men depending on wife age.
India offers 26 weeks maternity leave, 0 paternity leave.
That’s almost 50% of the world right there. Compared to your 2%. Satisfied?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave
You can see the times of each country under ‘by continent’.
ProbablyNotADuck t1_j6dxq9b wrote
Yes. Reference China and India…. Two countries known for their high quality labour laws and excellent working conditions. That will definitely prove your point.
Eldryanyyy t1_j6dxxze wrote
I left the Wikipedia with every country’ policy listed. Essentially 0% have equal leave.
ProbablyNotADuck t1_j6dycca wrote
Your statement was fathers get nothing. I said this is not true in many countries. I provided examples of multiple countries where parental leave, inclusive of leave for fathers, is provided. I supported my argument, which showed your argument (that fathers receive nothing) is inaccurate when it comes to multiple countries and is continuing to improve.
Great job.
Also, maternity leave may not have to do with recovery time, but it sure as hell has a lot to do with practicality. Men don’t lactate. Formula is expensive. Uptake on parental leave by men is still slow (which is what that japanese article was about.. it wasn’t new policy; it was about promoting existing policy so more men use it by requiring companies to make sure they reiterate it to men). There are so many countries where women aren’t even seen as people still.. where they aren’t able to drive, or their wardrobes are dictated, or they can’t get a quality education… and you’re using those countries, the ones that are forcing women into a role that solely exists to procreate, as examples of how men are hard done by because they don’t get equal leave after a woman gives birth.
We do need to promote equality for parental leave because it equally impacts women who would prefer to return to work… but we need to promote equality in general and not penalizing for taking leave. Because, guess what, it is still damaging to a woman’s career if she is off for a year raising kids.
Eldryanyyy t1_j6e8mtn wrote
No… your argument falls short.
Because maternity leave is so much longer, the mom will be with the baby while the father gets nothing. I said this because it means that the scenario described in OP will inevitably occur, due to systemic differences in gender treatment under the laws of 99% of countries. Your argument fails to address that.
About practicality: We have these things called refrigerators, where we can store milk… although many women use powder these days. That’s not why women have more leave.
About your ‘well this is wrong for women’: There are 0 countries where women aren’t viewed as people. I’ve lived in ‘oppressive’ countries (notably a few STAN countries), and women are respected in all of them… Not driving or wearing sexy clothes doesn’t make someone not a person. Although those laws exist in like 2 countries, you’d be shocked how open minded the reality is in those countries.
Lastly: Whether it damages a career or not depends on the career.
ProbablyNotADuck t1_j6edb6p wrote
Do you know how breasts work? Because they still require pumping.. so there is time dedicated to that if a woman is going keep lactating, meaning time during the day to pump (20-30 minutes to do it properly), a thermal bag to store breastmilk.. storage at home for breastmilk. You really do not seem to know much about this.. especially based on your comment again about powder. Formula is really expensive. While, yes, people absolutely use it, it adds significant costs if you are dependent entirely on formula.
There are also way more than two countries where modesty laws exist and even more countries where equality is a massive issue.
Eldryanyyy t1_j6ekgtm wrote
I’m discussing laws about driving. Actually only 1 country. Modesty laws are in almost every country, affecting men and women.
20-30 minutes a day… is not the reason why women get entire days off work. I’ve had colleagues store the milk during lunch breaks, in countries with lower leave times.
Equality is something a few countries don’t have, but based on your posts, I highly doubt you’ve ever seen what these countries are actually like.
ProbablyNotADuck t1_j6fkqxz wrote
Great one. You are showing a lack of understanding when it comes to multiple things.
Firstly, it isn't 20-30 minutes per day. It is 20-30 minutes per pumping session. That is 8-10 times per day. And, again, I did not say it is impossible to do this. I said it was incredibly inconvenient to do this. Talking about your colleagues is not going to do much here because you've already proven yourself to know very little about most anything surrounding this. Clearly, you are a man. There is definitely no way that you are paying this much attention to what your female colleagues are doing with their breasts during the work day because, if you were, you'd look like a giant pervert.
And now you're going to try to claim that I haven't been exposed to other cultures? That definitely is going to give your baseless comments merit. Admittedly, I have not been to China. I've been to India. I've been to Iceland. I've been to the UK. I've been to Pakistan. How many more countries do you want me to list? Because I spent most of my 20s working for an International humanitarian organization and dealt with maternal, newborn and child health.. so I can go for a while here and I can list a whole lot of stuff. I'd like you to continue to tell me how hard men have it when it comes to childcare when there are a significant number of countries that don't even provide women with enough care to give them good odds during childbirth.
Eldryanyyy t1_j6h5frl wrote
India isn’t the country you discussed where women ‘aren’t treated like human beings’. Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran…are. Changing the subject pretty obviously when it’s clear you are wrong.
8 times a day is for new mothers. Maternity leave is way too long for that to ever be relevant. Changing the subject again. Most women only pump every 4 hours when they return to work. Once before work, once during lunch, once after work.
Seems the lack of understanding clearly isn’t mine.
Men often have no right to even raise their own children in many countries. Including the west. However, this argument style of ‘what about men and this’ is clearly a deflection because you know I’m right.
billebop96 t1_j6eqohb wrote
They never said fathers get nothing, only that in most places, mothers generally get more. Sure, that’s starting to change but it’s definitely still not at parity in much of the world.
ProbablyNotADuck t1_j6fjcvv wrote
They actually literally said fathers get nothing in their original comment.
"Or because women get maternal leave, and fathers get nothing"
psibomber t1_j6b7wpv wrote
Every kid I've talked to growing up had their parents argue over that, break up, and then pretty much make their kid's lives worse over these small petty things.
Like I said, every couple can work something out to be most content. Just figure out how to be happy, for their sake and their kid's sake. In the first world we have so much, and we take it all for granted. It's so stupid when parents are arguing nonstop over how many dishes were done or how many diapers were changed, who works and who doesn't, who earns the most money. And every kid with single parents.
YoggyYog t1_j6ce4jp wrote
Have you considered the possibility that they break up /because/ there is no solution other than the maternal unit taking on the responsibilities the paternal unit avoids. These issues matter, and they’re so prevalent, because there is a big problem with avoidance of responsibility in the household among men.
These-Dragonfruit189 t1_j6av2s2 wrote
That’s it ^
Eldryanyyy t1_j6chw3v wrote
This sounds so toxic. He was proud of being a great father, so you felt slighted and insulted him?
OffusMax t1_j6b48pk wrote
No malice intended, but you sound like my wife, who will bite off her nose to spite her face and has a very sharp tongue. I can’t tell you how many times she’s hurt me because she’s taken something I’ve said the wrong way.
I suggest that you talk to him and give him a heartfelt apology. Tell him that you were upset and why you were upset and that you reacted without thinking. And that you’re very sorry. That you do appreciate all that he does.
You both need to remember that you’re a team. It’s supposed to be the two of you against the world and that everyone contributes in their own way.
Good luck
love_that_fishing t1_j6bvmmq wrote
He also slept till late afternoon while you had the kid all day. My guess is that was the underlying issue. Unless he works night shift that would piss me off too.
SatyaNi t1_j6caxx3 wrote
Every woman is pissed off when her man is peacefully napping anyway.
DJ_Rand t1_j6ce5w3 wrote
Dated a girl once where our work shifts differed, she basically would leave for work about 4 hours before I would. She also didn't like to get much sleep herself. Though she'd take a nap when she got home from work while I was still at work. We'd then spend the rest of the day together, and I'd wake up and keep her company when she was getting ready for work, and then I'd try to get a couple more hours of sleep before I had to leave for work.
By the end of the week, I'd be so tired from not having regular sleep, that on my days off I would pass out for about 10 hours... this upset her greatly, and she'd go off on me and stay mad for a day or so. Because I was sleeping...
That was the single most annoying thing I've ever dealt with.
Some people just want a reason to be upset.
louwyatt t1_j6auqwd wrote
Did you and your husband work the same amount at this time?
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