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weareallbabiesman t1_jdbe301 wrote

i agree that Black Sails was underrated. i think they're done, though. kinda jumped the shark with the gay lover ending, i bet lots of people were turned off by that. if they brought the show back, though, i would definitely watch it. one of the best shows ever.

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dravenonred t1_jdctdwe wrote

Gay lover ending?

Bro, where were you from S2 onward?

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cheapnfrozensushi t1_jde3n3d wrote

not that this makes this take any less homophobic, but the show is very ambiguous about whether or not that actually happened

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MadeByTango t1_jdedre7 wrote

Great storytelling; sealed the deal on a show that knew what it was doing and succeeded

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gerryf19 t1_jdm66yr wrote

Jumped the shark? JUMPED THE SHARK?

Black Sails didn’t jump the shark although they did eat that damn shark,

‘Nuff said. Jumped the shark, indeed.

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hocumflute OP t1_jdben4s wrote

yeah, that was out of left field and really softened our hardest and most ruthless character imo. They had already set up a whole romance between him and Barlow - it came across as superfluous and detracted from his clear love for gold.

However, piracy in general is a great opportunity for narratives around slavery, gender, and sexual orientation as pirates notoriously didn't give a shit so long as it earned them money.

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Interesting-Turn9046 t1_jdeoa78 wrote

This comment is what I expect from a 13 year old boy to be honest. It's so hilariously out of touch with actual life and relationships

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hocumflute OP t1_jdfe0xx wrote

How does that twist progress his character?

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Interesting-Turn9046 t1_jdgoqvi wrote

How does being gay 'progress his character'? Literally everything he does is as a result of his relationship with Thomas and their treatment under the Crown and Thomas' father. His entire character is shaped by that relationship. Black Sails is basically a show about how Flint wants to take down the British Empire, because of how much it destroyed his and Thomas' lives. If you think it is all about his love for gold, you have epically misunderstood the show. The gold is just a means to fight back against an Empire that Flint sees as tyrannical. That whole speech that Flint does in the last episode... Here there be dragons... that sums up the whole point of his character and the show as a whole, it isn't about gold.

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hocumflute OP t1_jdgq15x wrote

>How does being gay 'progress his character'? Literally everything he does is as a result of his relationship with Thomas and their treatment under the Crown and Thomas' father. His entire character is shaped by that relationship. Black Sails is basically a show about how Flint wants to take down the British Empire, because of how much it destroyed his and Thomas' lives

The Barlow relationship did that already. There was no need to add another love interest

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Interesting-Turn9046 t1_jdgsqen wrote

You come across as either young, homophobic or a bit heartless by the way. Sure, they could have had that entire arc done through a hetero relationship, but maybe, just maybe, the writer wanted to make the lead character bisexual and have those same things achieved through his love with another man. It wasn't a fucking 'twist to shock the viewers' it was just Flint's written character of being a bisexual man. They do exist by the way and their existence isn't a 'shocking twist'.

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hocumflute OP t1_jdgt9mn wrote

>You come across as either young, homophobic or a bit heartless by the way

Stop. I'm talking about the quality of a show.

There are PLENTY that explore sexuality while successfully driving the plot (will and grace, 6 feet under, boondocks saints - off the top of my head)

Attacking me doesn't make ham fisted token characters and plots any more valid.

>Sure, they could have had that entire arc done through a hetero relationship, but maybe, just maybe, the writer wanted to make the lead character bisexual and have those same things achieved through his love with another man.

The question remains - why.

> It wasn't a fucking 'twist to shock the viewers'

It wasn't?

What else did it achieve which the Barlow relationship wouldn't?

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Interesting-Turn9046 t1_jdgtqty wrote

>The question remains - why.

Because bisexual men exist and clearly the writer wanted to make Flint one of them. Your dog whistle is really showing using terms like 'ham fisted token characters'. You take issue that Flint loves a man, you even said it makes him 'softer' which is an incredibly honest take to have and actually say publicly, that you believe if a man loves another man that 'softens him'. I would expect to see that take in the mid 70s to be honest. Does Charles Vane's scenes with Elanor also 'soften' him? Or since he is railing a hot blond is that fine?

I'll tell you what it achieved that the Barlow relationship wouldn't. It took one of the toughest characters on screen and said that he can be that tough, that ruthless and that powerful and love a man, and that his toughness, ruthlessness and power can come from his love for another man. That, on many levels, is an interesting thing to do in a TV show like black sails.

And yes, all of that can be achieved through a hetero relationship with Barlow. But if you take issue that it was done through his love for a man, and not a woman, I hate to break it to you, but that is no longer about the 'quality of the show'

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hocumflute OP t1_jdgul4e wrote

>>The question remains - why. > >Because bisexual men exist and clearly the writer wanted to make Flint one of them.

Imagine if Walt suddenly had a romance outside of his marriage and drug empire in breaking bad.

Do you see why that would detract from the story, regardless of gender?

> Your dog whistle is really showing using terms like 'ham fisted token characters'.

I'm not going to respond again if you attack me again.

Stop it. Address my point, or shove off.

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Interesting-Turn9046 t1_jdguxvw wrote

>Imagine if Walt suddenly had a romance in breaking bad.
>
>Do you see why that would detract from the story, regardless of gender?

Not really if it was done well? I can't really comment on this without seeing a script with this happening, but I could totally see it working. It's been like a decade since I watched that show so I can't remember it as well as Black Sails, but I'm pretty sure his relationship with his wife heavily influenced the story.

I don't care if you respond or not, you are basically arguing that Flint being bisexual and loving another man makes him 'softer' and takes away from the story. Then you follow it up by saying that everything that the writer added to the story through the relationship could have been achieved by a hetero relationship instead. It's baseless homophobia, you just don't like seeing your macho pirate antihero love a man because in your mind this is a dichotomy, which is probably the whole bloody point of the writer doing it in the first place.

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hocumflute OP t1_jdhhbpy wrote

>you follow it up by saying that everything that the writer added to the story through the relationship could have been achieved by a hetero relationship instead.

Imagine making this up, then calling people names from this imaginary argument nobody made.

Seriously - point to where I said anything of the sort, or delete your account.

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Interesting-Turn9046 t1_jdhicjg wrote

You are basically arguing that Flint being bisexual and loving another man makes him 'softer'

From your comment earlier discussing the character having a gay relationship - 'yeah, that was out of left field and really softened our hardest and most ruthless character imo'

Then you follow it up by saying that everything that the writer added to the story through the relationship could have been achieved by a hetero relationship instead

From your comment earlier countering me saying that the gay relationship drove the story and character - 'the Barlow relationship did that already. There was no need to add another love interest'

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hocumflute OP t1_jdhjizi wrote

>Then you follow it up by saying that everything that the writer added to the story through the relationship could have been achieved by a hetero relationship instead

You are literally the only one talking about anything hetero.

I never even used the word.

Stop making shit up and delete your account

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Interesting-Turn9046 t1_jdhkzla wrote

I'm done arguing with a homophobe. Its 2023, touch some grass

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hocumflute OP t1_jdhlydv wrote

"everyone with criticism that I dislike is a 'homophobe'"

Your persecution complex is showing. Nobody is talking about "heterosexual", or "homosexual" relationships being better or worse on screen.

You need better reading comprehension if you are going to be this childish

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cheapnfrozensushi t1_jdh5h63 wrote

I think the big thing you're missing is that Flint's emotional motivation needs to be tied up in Piracy As Revolution, and him being gay long before it's accepted, and persecuted for it, is a great way to tie emotionality to his politics. Flint is nothing if not intensely passionate about his goals to burn The Old World down, and I wouldn't want to lose that fire for something more stoic and pragmatic. Flint's impassioned anger towards the world makes the show work. He becomes The Monster long before Miranda is killed

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007meow t1_jde8qxm wrote

Why does his gay arc “soften” him, but Miranda/Mrs Barlow doesn’t?

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hocumflute OP t1_jdfelzg wrote

First, any relationship softens the character by humanizing them.

Look at breaking bad - the whole story is about Walts adultery - to building an empire instead of his family.

Had he suddenly had a love interest (male or female), that would detract from his "true" love of building an empire against his love for his family.

The Barlow relationship was introduced first, and was a clear enough motivation for Flint to become what he was - hell bent on chaos against the British empire, exploiting his crews love of gold to get there.

The twist was from out of left field, and (to my recollection) wasn't really spoken of afterwards. It didn't push his character forward, and it "softened" him by diluting his motives beyond piracy and vengeance.

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