Submitted by Toidotlers t3_zug00o in technology
marwayne t1_j1nepxn wrote
Reply to comment by TheQuarantinian in Revealed: The Israeli Firm Selling ‘Dystopian’ Hacking Capabilities by Toidotlers
Ok first of all, if Israel doesn’t want Islamic fundamentalists in power, it shouldn’t arm and fund them. That’s the only reason Hamas has any power in the first place.
In what sense did Israel not take the land by force? Zionists and the United Nations came to Palestinians with a proposal where israel would take 57% of the mandate of Palestine and Palestinians would keep 43%. This 1947 proposal was called the Palestine partition. Palestinians rejected this. When the British mandate ended in 1948, israel seized what we know as modern day israel, which comprised of 78% of the land that made up the mandate of Palestine.
To say that Palestinians didn’t exist before the 1800s is an egregious lie. That region has historically been referred to as Palestine for millennia, first written record is 5th century bce by a green historian. Modern nations and nationalities are made up of a bunch of different ethnicities. When regions change rulers, they don’t normally change populations. Throughout history, peoples have often changed how they identified politically. The Sardinians eventually became Italians, Prussians became Germans. It would be laughable to suggest that the Sardinians were kicked out and replaced by a distinct foreign Italian people. We must separate the political nationalist identity of people from their personhood as human beings, as nationalism is a relatively modern concept, especially in the Middle East.
Also, it seems to me that you are suggesting that Jews were the only people to exist in this region historically which, again, is patently false. And the Jews that did live there had a variety of ethnic backgrounds. There were two primary reasons Jews became a minority in Palestine in the 3rd and 4th centuries AD 1) diasporas caused by Jewish rebellions against the Roman Empire and 2) conversions to Christianity.
The people who remained in Palestine and the Jews who left are brothers. To say the Jews are the only people with a right to live on their ancestral land is a crazy take.
TheQuarantinian t1_j1py5vv wrote
> Ok first of all, if Israel doesn’t want Islamic fundamentalists in power, it shouldn’t arm and fund them. That’s the only reason Hamas has any power in the first place.
Hamas was a gamble that Israel took decades ago. Israel screwed up. So what should the lesson be here? Should Israel never trust any Arabic groups again?
> In what sense did Israel not take the land by force?
Some history.
In 1947 the United Nations (the same organization that antisemetic groups rely on to support their anti-Israel position these days) passed a resolution calling for separate independent states for Jewish and Arab populations, with the city of Jerusalem held in an international trust since nobody could get along when it came to control of the city. Britain, anxious to maintain the status quo continued to arrest Jewish immigrants who were trying to enter the areas designated for them.
Arabic militants who were committed to hating the Jews until the end laid seige to the 100,000 Jewish people living in Jerusalem, killing anybody who attempted to bring them supplies (meanwhile, today, people who say that this kind of action is justified against Jewish people get irate when Jerusalem forces simple screen incoming shipments for bombs and rockets. One side definitely plays by different rules than the other.)
The British eventually left the area (keeping large numbers of Jewish immigrants in detention centers in Cyprus until the following year) and worked to set up an arms embargo against the fledgling Jewish state which was asking only for the right to live in a contiguous swath of territory and not be targeted for slaughter - again. Arab forces mustered 250,000 heavily armed fighters against a civilian population, relatively outgunned until Czechoslovakia broke the embargo and provided equipment to counter the British weaponry the Arab states had pointed at the new Israeli state.
After a month long truce brokered by the United Nations ran out, Arabic forces once again attempted to expel or kill all Jewish settlers in the area. Israel pushed back and started to capture territory that had been used to stage attacks against them. Later that year, Jordan annexed swaths of Palestine in an agreement that nobody except for the British accepted as valid.
In 1949 Israel signed ceasefire agreements with Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan. Not formal peace treaties, they were maining "you stop trying to kill us and we'll stop shooting back" deals. There were no formally recognized international boundaries established, but rather what was essentially putting a line of tape on the floor saying "you stay on that side of the room, and we'll stay on this side".
Real history is a far cry different than your portrayal of "and they burst into the area with guns and just took everything they wanted".
> To say that Palestinians didn’t exist before the 1800s is an egregious lie.
Except they didn't". "Palestine". "Palestinian Arab". See how different terms are used? Why do you think that different terms are used? Perhaps could it be that they refer to different groups? People lived in the US Midwest 1,000 years ago. Did that make them American Midwesterners? No, no it did not.
"Palestine" as you are using it did not exist before the mid 1800s. It was not a unified people with their own identity. Want to talk about egregious lies? Let's start by your claim that Palestinians existed as a unique cultural agglomeration before that time.
> That region has historically been referred to as Palestine for millennia
You rather disingenuously leave out that the region had been home to Akkadians, Gutians, Elamites, and Amorites - none of which are Palestinans as used and understood today. Then the Semitic Hyksos people came (they weren't related to modern Palestinians either) and were driven out. Then Egypt took control of the territory. Then the Sea People (nobody know who they were) showed up and caused a bunch of problems - their victories might later have been claimed by Jewish groups, but there is nothing even close to a consensus on this.
At some point during the 10 year reign of Merenptah of Egypt (round 1210 BC) he wrote that "Israel had been devastated" in wars against Libya (who were allies of the Sea People), which is the first known external reference to Israel in the area, though it is unclear what "Israel" referred to - an ethnic group or tribe or minor independent or other state in the area.
By 1100BC and 1050BC Israel was firmly established in the region, with the splitting of the unified kingdom into the North and South (with the Southern kingdom centered in Jerusalem around 930BC).
The Assyrians (not modern Palestinians) took over the region around 720BC, but unable to defeat the Israeli capital of Jerusalem contented to making it a vassal state around 720BC.
They were then driven out by Babylonians around 600BC, who destroyed everything in the region including Solomon's Temple and took the remaining Jewish people into captivity, pulling them out of the region.
In the late 500s BC, Achaemenid king Cyrus the Great defeated the Babylonians and allowed the Jewish people to return to the region. (Still nobody from whom modern Palestinians can draw historical legitimacy, as if you cared.)
Then Persia fell to Alexander the Great, eventually the Maccabees revolved around 200 BC and formed what would be the last independent Jewish state in the region, until they were conquered by the Romans, with the Palestinina region being placed into Roman Judea by Agustus around 30 BC.
Romans destroyed Jerusalem around 70AD, a defeat of the Jewish people in the area by Lucius Quietus around 115 AD, the Bar-Kochba Revolt around 135AD during which Roman/Jewish fighting led to almost 600,000 Jewish deaths, after which Hadrian renamed the region Syria Palaestina specifically to insult the remnants of the Jewish people.
In the 300s Constantine the Great made the region a Christian land, and Muslim groups showed up in the mid 600s.
Flash to today, when you say "hey, the Arab Palestines were there first, no fair driving out people and capturing their lands, give them back! Oh, the Jews were there first and were driven out? Well, you can capture their lands and not give them back, the rules of fairness don't apply to them."
marwayne t1_j1rin10 wrote
You seem to be using a lot of regurgitated talking points so I’m going to break this down very simply.
It does not matter if Palestinians did not have a national identity before the 1800s. Modern nationalism is a new concept in the Middle East. What matters is that there were people there in that area that were kicked out of their homes by the nationalist movement for a Jewish ethnostate called Zionism. The region, as you alluded to, had a wide array of ethnic and religious backgrounds all living in harmony. Jews and Christians and Muslims were neighbors and brothers.
The UN, a bunch of white colonizing nations who were not from the region, decided that 57% of that land would be taken away from the population that was living there. The indigenous people. They revolted. In the ensuing ethnic cleaning, zionists siezed 78% of that land. The indigenous population went from ~1.3 million in 1947 to ~150,000 in 1948.
It doesn’t matter who lived on that land 2000, 3000, however many years ago. You cannot go to someone’s home and say my ancestors lived here 3000 years ago so I’m taking it back now. If that was the case for even 400 years ago, America wouldn’t be a country.
The modern state of Israel militarily occupies the West Bank and Gaza and continually kicks Palestinians out of their homes in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. They are about to annex the West Bank. They armed and funded Islamic terrorists in order to create a rift in the Palestinian population and pull support away from the primary Palestinian political party. Now, they collectively punish all Palestinians living in Gaza with a blockade that controls water, electricity, construction materials, access to their air and sea space, natural resources, etc. 57% of Gaza children are anemic and 90% of the water is unsafe to drink. You’re quick to brush this off as a failed gamble, but it is a cold and calculated move. They even calculated the caloric intake required to keep people on the brink of starvation but wouldn’t die. “The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.”
Israel is not even a nation of its citizens. It is, by law, a Jewish nation. The Jewish nation state law declares the right to self-determination in Israel/Palestine “is unique to the Jewish people,” and the “state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation,” effectively encouraging racial segregation in housing.
Former Israeli prime ministers Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert have both warned that a continuation of the occupation will lead to Israel becoming an "apartheid" state. Barak stated: "As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic… If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state."
There are more than 50 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel. directly or indirectly, based solely on their ethnicity, rendering them second or third class citizens in their own homeland.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela, heroes of the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, have both compared Israel's treatment of Palestinians to apartheid.
These are not actions that the good guy takes. Fascism and apartheid have always been inevitable for Israel, and maybe this new government of theirs will convince you of that. But honestly, I doubt it.
TheQuarantinian t1_j1rogra wrote
>It does not matter if Palestinians did not have a national identity before the 1800s.
Then the nation cannot have a claim. That simple.
> What matters is that there were people there in that area that were kicked out of their homes
Like the Jews. But according to you they don't matter because Jewish.
> Jews and Christians and Muslims were neighbors and brothers.
And now the militant factions of one of those wants to commit genocide and you support them.
>The UN, a bunch of white colonizing nations
Like the Syrian Arab Republic (charter member, but you didn't know that).
>It doesn’t matter who lived on that land 2000, 3000, however many years ago. You cannot go to someone’s home and say my ancestors lived here 3000 years ago so I’m taking it back now.
What is the statute of limitations?
> If that was the case for even 400 years ago, America wouldn’t be a country.
Nothing would be a country because everything has been captured by somebody at some point.
> Now, they collectively punish all Palestinians living in Gaza with a blockade that controls water, electricity, construction materials, access to their air and sea space, natural resources, etc.
Which would stop at any time with a pro.ise to stop trying to exterminate the Jews and punish people who try instead of affording them nation hero status.
> 57% of Gaza children are anemic and 90% of the water is unsafe to drink. You’re quick to brush this off as a failed gamble, but it is a cold and calculated move.
Easy fix. They stop advocating genocide and figure out a way to share the region, problem solved. Launching rockets at civilians does not make them good guys, nor does it encourage cooperation.
> They even calculated the caloric intake required to keep people on the brink of starvation but wouldn’t die.
Citation needed. This is Alex Jones level of conspiracy nutzo-ness.
In 2008 Israel set to ensure just under 2,300 calories/day per person which is on the brink of starvation for nobody.
> “The idea is to put the Palestinians 2008a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.”
Who are you quoting? And since when is 2,279 calories a diet?
>These are not actions that the good guy takes.
Do I need to link to videos of Palestinian actions and let you avoid having to ignore them because they are indefensible?
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