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ThreadbareHalo t1_iy9sa6v wrote

Reply to comment by Lollmfaowhatever in Forced Uyghur labor is being used in China's solar panel supply chain, researchers say by chrisdh79

I would argue our political objectives to do what? China getting mad over this and stopping supply of cheap goods would devastate the us economy. I keep seeing “we’re doing this for political reasons!” Used as an argument but I don’t understand how it’s a logical one. Looking too deeply into foreign cheap labor in general would destroy the us economy how is it possibly in our political interest to do so?

If the US wanted to get into a tiff with china they could point to very clear broad human rights abuses done against the citizenry at large… they don’t need to focus on one minority group that the majority of the country could care less about. It doesn’t make sense when you think about the ramifications of pissing off the supplier you politically need to sustain your own wealth. Why would any politician risk ruining the trade agreements they likely need to maintain their own rich lifestyles?

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[deleted] t1_iy9z2o1 wrote

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ThreadbareHalo t1_iya80gu wrote

… respectfully a bunch of those statements seem very specific talking points on this subject that would be surprising for a random person just happening to comment on this thread to know…

And a lot of them, specifically the huwaii comment in particular seem like talking points in a general narrative rather than something specific to this particular topic. Are we keeping to this topic or are we peppering general statements with the hope of making an emotional argument rather than one that stays on point?

There’s no argument that makes sense in tanking xinjiang for its solar panels. The investigation into xinjiang occurred years before their solar panel developments were anywhere close to a main export. Textiles were the primary export when this investigation started and it’s unclear if your argument is that the US wants to disrupt the cheap textile market and that’s why they started these investigations…

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PandaBearShenyu t1_iyaxpdl wrote

I like how all of your posts can be summed up as "nuh uh".

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ThreadbareHalo t1_iyayh9t wrote

Can they? They’re asking what the logic is for the us getting in on xinjiang’s textile industry when the investigation started. I think that’s a reasonable question for people to ask cause I don’t think the us has expressed interests in becoming a cheap textile manufacturer

I’d be more inclined to believe the logic behind these refutations if A) it wasn’t pretty apparent that some karma mucking was being done cause who on earth is looking this deep into this thread to upvote their response… and B) if the logic was internally consistent. But it isn’t… the US wasn’t interested in the industries xinjiang had when these claims first arose and if the us wanted to stir up trouble why on earth would they choose to do it with a comparably tiny minority group that’s currently as locked down as it can possibly be. Would be like trying to take down the US by riling up the Amish.

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PandaBearShenyu t1_iyaynk7 wrote

There is reasonable, then there's wasting everyone's time by being deliberately obtuse like a five year old that just keeps asking "why" to every explanation. You're firmly in the latter.

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ThreadbareHalo t1_iyazkev wrote

Respectfully if your argument is “it’s a bad thing to ask why on things that don’t make sense”…. Then your argument seems pretty damn weak. If China is in the right here there should be some logically consistent reasons for those questions. And if people are convinced in the absence of those logically consistent reasons then… ok I guess but they definitely shouldn’t be portraying themselves as the ones “asking for proof”.

Like… if china wants to seem to the world like the reasonable one, this whole “just accept what you’re being told and stop asking questions” mentality is… hoping that a bunch of people are seriously subservient and easily convinced and I don’t think that’s the case for most people nowadays.

Edit: I’m not sure blocking me because you want to preemptively assume what I’m writing is wrong or pointless is the best argument for you being logical or right either…

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PandaBearShenyu t1_iyb0etg wrote

Listen, I'm genuinely not interested in getting into this with you since you will just bait me into thinking your long winded talking in circles have any content and waste my time, I'm literally just making an observation.

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dxiao t1_iyb30yo wrote

I get where you are coming from, 99% of people on Reddit know nothing about China and only knows how to repeat the article heads lines and western narrative that we see day in and out on Reddit. So when someone that is actually educated about China AND it’s peoples culture, it can certainly catch someone off guard.

This is so typical of Reddit, when one cannot bring up a coherent argument, they resort to attacking their persona and often by going through one’s history to find “evidence” to further justify their internal biases.

Regarding the our interests and the root cause of us messing with xinjiang, it’s simply one of the methods that we use to try to slow down their growth, decreasing the potential competition and market share. We have been trying to slow down China for the last decade but have made little or no progress, they can make high quality products at competitive prices and that is a problem for us. Huawei is a key example here, if we didn’t step in, Huawei would’ve taken over Europe at an communication infrastructure level, this is a huge concern us Americans for obvious reasons. We do not want to fuel the fire(China) anymore, it’s growing so big that it’s becoming a risk hence why we are trying to put the fire out(chips act) or slow it down. Historically, xinjiang has been the corridor for terrorists to enter into China, a small but growing number was starting to become a concern in the 2010s. Many propagandist or conspiracy theorist say that the CIA has a heavy hand in helping the migration of these Muslim terrorists from places like Syria and Yemen into xinjiang in order to disrupt the growth of that region and ultimately China, but this is not a fact. Regardless, I think it’s important to be able to critically think and understand why we as a country are so obsessed with China when there are many many other countries in the world committing much worse atrocities.

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ThreadbareHalo t1_iybevsl wrote

I’m unclear about your last sentence. If we’re taking as fact that atrocities ARE happening then as a human being I want them called out. Period. All this conspiracy non-cited stuff about the cia doing this or that or pretending the multi country comments about Huwaii having demonstrable spyware doesn’t exist is secondary. Human beings are being involved in atrocities and we’re at the point of saying “well yeah but why do we care about this one particular atrocity so much”? Wtf?

I honestly can’t understand the sentiment of “yeah atrocities are happening but why are we interested in these atrocities in particular?” They’re atrocities! If they’re not atrocities then China should be eager to show the us for fools and invite the whole world to freely and without restrictions go to any center they wish. If they ARE atrocities then what are we talking about? None of us normies should be more for ANY government, US or china, to the point of wanting to hand wave away atrocities. I was fucking furious when information on Guantanamo bay came out and I expressed that plainly despite it being my country and despite other countries using it for political capital. Like seriously, what are we doing where atrocities don’t matter if some country might benefit from pointing them out? That’s what human beings are supposed to do. Sociopaths are the ones saying we should ignore it if someone benefits and it would make us look bad.

I’d be fine it more atrocities around the world were called out… including ones in the us. Go freaking nuts, maybe they’ll stop doing it then. That’s the only sane perspective a normal human being should possible possess.

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dxiao t1_iyblkxb wrote

I agree, all atrocities should be called out and actions taken against, but that is a very ideological view point and not realistic. Countries and their political bodies have interests, if the calling out and action would not further those interests, then these political bodies have no desire to do so. That is unfortunately how most of the world works.

China did open up and allow investigators in and have done so recently again. Michelle Bachelet, former head of the UN visited and wrote a lengthy report dated as recent as august 31st 2022. Guess what, you cant find one instance where the word genocide is used and unlike most people, I actually read all 48 pages and it’s references, which a lot were anecdotal. Like a Uyghur woman said this or a Uyghur man said that. There is certainly some human rights impacted, like to be able to freely mobilize or practice religion in an enclosed private space en masse, these are just some examples but not all. This isn’t a genocide, concentration camps are not the same as re-education camps. Do re education camps suck and probably push or breaks the boundaries of human rights, most likely. But China isn’t gassing up and killing millions of Muslims. Anyways, I digress, my point is that countries do and should care for their self interest, it’s where those interest lie that matters. It’s how we advance and further ourselves, as a country, that matters.

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ThreadbareHalo t1_iybmh95 wrote

It concerns me that we’re discussing that unless the word “genocide” is used that it’s not a big deal. The words “crimes against humanity” were used. That’s still a big deal.

We are just two random people on a social media network… why on earth are we discussing “political bodies having interests”? We’re not part of the government. Why the hell would we be discussing this topic like we are?!

It’s insane that unless people are literally being gassed to death that that doesn’t warrant discussion and a coordinated effort to stop it. You’re supposed to, as a human being, stop that before it gets anywhere close to that.

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dxiao t1_iybnf9r wrote

Even if people were being gassed to death, starving to death by the hundreds of thousands, massacred due to religion, those with power wouldn’t act unless it aligned with their political entity and agenda.

Im curious how you think we as average citizens are suppose to stop it, things occurring outside of our reach. Im not saying we shouldn’t, im asking how.

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ThreadbareHalo t1_iybo5r9 wrote

I can tell you the first thing we can do as average citizens which is to not jump to saying things like “we need more proof” on social media when we’re taking it as given that atrocities and crimes against humanity are happening. Because that appears to be done in an attempt to minimize what we’re agreeing is a crime against humanity which seems a super weird thing for a person to do.

Asking anyone to figure out how to solve governmentally driven atrocities before we can begin to discuss those atrocities plainly and without hypocritical “well there are other atrocities in the world too” stuff seems a request that ONLY benefits the people doing the atrocity.

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dxiao t1_iyboiap wrote

That’s fair but facts also matter, that’s where proof comes in.

But what happens after, regardless of proof? Taking the Yemen famine for example, where tens of millions of people are starving to death.

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ThreadbareHalo t1_iybrvxv wrote

Yes, that IS where proof comes in. Which is why it’s beyond bizarre that china is not openly and freely letting people tour the sites whenever they want without chaperones. Having chaperones that direct the investigation there fundamentally makes this a problem. China could pull a masterful turn on the west by opening up those locations completely and saying “here is proof there is no validity to your claims, we aren’t scared”.

But they aren’t.

They’re doing the stupid guilty looking thing that’s making everyone question using them as a supplier MORE than they were before. They’re demanding terms. It’s like someone being accused of stealing stuff by their neighbor and when people in the neighborhood ask to search their house they say “ok but I have to be with you the whole time, if you ask questions I don’t like then I’ll threaten you with retaliation and I get to choose what rooms you look in. And by the way if you talk about this it’s because you actually want my job”. You CAN do that, but it’s not out of bounds to say that to everyone else that makes you look super guilty of something. You can’t have both doing stuff that makes you look super guilty AND demand that people can’t talk about how you look super guilty. That’s ridiculous and deserves to be ridiculed. If china doesn’t want to be ridiculed and have this constant thing over their heads it’s entirely within Chinas power to fix that by just doing anything other than the ridiculous saber rattling and social media influencing that they’ve been focusing on instead of… yknow… solving the crime against humanity in their backyard.

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dxiao t1_iybtwuj wrote

What you are saying is from the perspective of a westerner, China and it’s people does not care to prove anything to the world. That’s where you are mistaken, to think they feel like they have a need to prove something to the west. They are not scared, they are just not going to play this game and just continue to grow. China is going to do what is best for China. You say they are being ridiculed but that’s only because of the media you are exposed to. Muslim countries are coming to chinas defense on this topic. Asia continues to partner and grow economically with China. Only we in the west and our Allies think they are being ridiculed. China’s GDP continues to grow year over year, inflation is ranked the lowest in the world, they simply don’t care what we have to say.

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ThreadbareHalo t1_iybvc6e wrote

Respectfully they very much do want to prove something to the world or else they wouldn’t have farms posting prepared refutations on social media, refusing to let people have unsupervised interviews with Uyghurs inside the country and threatening other countries with retaliation if they talk about it. If they’re trying to prove they don’t care and are just going to do what’s best for them they’re doing a phenomenally poor job of showing it. All of their actions scream a need for approval. You don’t need to do any of that shit when you’re strong and confident in yourself. You do that when you’re self conscious about how people view you.

All these ridiculously transparent karma manipulations and comments that very obviously aren’t trying to come to an objective and consistent argument, but just are making whatever argument seems to win even if it acknowledges crimes against humanity… I don’t know why people would do that. It seems such an admission of weakness and cringy wanting people to view them positively to everyone. Please view us as the picked on country, don’t worry about the crimes against humanity… yeesh I honestly don’t get why the people doing it don’t recognize that. I can’t imagine what bs they’re told that makes it seem worthwhile and not embarrassing.

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Lollmfaowhatever t1_iyd2yol wrote

lmfao, I agree with the other guy, it's literally a waste of time to talk to you. Instead of engaging and discussing, you just hide behind your rEsPecTfulY and try to get the other person to agree with your jargon and throw a hissy fit when they don't.

Bro the see see pee is 100% here to downvote you because your just that important. lmfao

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Lollmfaowhatever t1_iyd2jyj wrote

I'd much prefer if we just said this out loud as a reason and it would be perfectly respectable and valid. Like:

"Yeah we can't find any reason to believe Huawei has done jack but that don't mean they won't so we not gunna let them build our critical infra".

Instead they go with "bro trust me huawei has totes spied on literally every one. Oh what's that? German, Britain and Canadian spy agencies came out and said they found nothin? Forget about it, chynaaaa scawyy".

Legit that stuff pissed me off. I don't know why they can't just act like adults and instead behave like high school rumor mongering bitches about really serious international relations topics.

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Lollmfaowhatever t1_iyd37g0 wrote

Respectfully, either put up or shut up. Like what the other poster said, you legit have been talking in circles for hours wasting my time.

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ThreadbareHalo t1_iydl17a wrote

I mean you could prove me wrong really easily by condemning the crimes against humanity that the other poster stipulated. Or saying a few things that about how the zero Covid policy is overreaching and a failing policy.

Edit: lol, so to be clear you can’t say that. A clear seemingly easy option to prove me wrong and instead runs and blocks me. Weird.

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Lollmfaowhatever t1_iydlpqs wrote

The only crime against humanity are your posts and argument style tbh.

"pls say im rite plssss".

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AnandaPriestessLove t1_iyautsd wrote

Indeed. Most curious that a regular passerby should happen to know such details about China. Not like it'd have anything whatsoever to do with any Chinese gov't sponsored troll farms. Not at all. Pay it no mind. All pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others.

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