You can have verified power steering for $8

Remember that these days Tesla is a Securities Act violation and bundle of workplace harrassment lawsuits that occasionally produces cars of dubious quality.

Cool, doing exactly what every other manufacturer does when a potential issue is discovered.

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Doing exactly what they’re legally obliged to do. Recalls for serious and dangerous problems don’t happen to other makes at the same frequency as Teslas. Other cars don’t usually spontaneously explode either.

Not exactly the same, Tesla did it automatically through a software update that required no action from owners. The word "recall" is just a formality here.

Calling this a "recall" is misleading. At best it's a soft recall. It was a mandatory OTA software update that was pre-emptive resolved by Tesla with no impact on drivers.

"you don't like the functionality of my cars? Make your own then."

I thought it would be 420.69 or tree fiddy

My Kuga has just been recalled for potential engine fires.....

I closed this thread right as I read this comment and had come come back to give an upvote. So good

A recall is a recall, just because it can be resolved by flashing the firmware doesn't change how it should be reported.

Don't give daddy Elon any ideas!

Let me get this straight. No manual steering AND no autopilot? So these highly prized vehicles can drive limited mileage only going directly forward and directly backwards (assuming reverse works)?

Get off Elon’s dick, a recall is a recall

fuck elon musk.

Don’t try logic, people here are sheep lol

Yes but when GM did it for the Bolt or Rivian did it for their vehicles, people said EVs are unreliable.

What? No 8 bucks, no car. Quit Twitter.

It is cool that they can fix recalls like this with a simple over the air update. It’s funny how much attention tesla always gets for things like this.

Actually gasoline cars explode at a significantly higher rate then BEVs.

As far as frequent Tesla recalls: If you counted the number of recalls where you have to physically bring the car in to the mechanic, it is less than average ICE cars. Like this issue, most of these “recalls” are addressed by an over the air software update

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Right. There have never been issues with gasoline cars exploding.

Teslas explode at a significantly higher rate than other EVs. I’m not dunking on EVs, i’m dunking on Teslas.

Soft recall is still a recall. Case closed!

Have they had their Twitter accounts blocked yet?

GOD DAMN LOCKNESS MONSTA!

Not to defend Tesla or anything but ice cars have had plenty of problems...

#"A firmware release that updated calibration values"

Ok, so a software update, over the air.

Lol

>Recalls for serious and dangerous problems don’t happen to other makes at the same frequency as Teslas. Other cars don’t usually spontaneously explode either.

Gonna need a source for this. How many recalls per year does Tesla have, and how many do other car companies have on average?

And gasoline vehicles (i.e. the majority) are vastly more likely to catch fire than EVs are. This is according to accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. Tesla makes up a plurality of the EV portion of this data, and for every vehicle fire their cars undergo, the "average" vehicle catches fire over 61 times (1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles).

Curious to know where on earth you're getting the idea that these cars get recalled more or "spontaneously explode" more than other cars do, except perhaps your own perception of media coverage?

To put it more plainly: just because a vehicle fire or recall from a "normal" car company doesn't show up on your newsfeed doesn't mean they don't happen. They just happen without media coverage.

Did they have low lines Of code?

I always buy older cars, less electronics in the car the better your off in my opinion, and they do not break so often, they last very long time if you take care of the car.

> There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles.

I’ve been driving gas cars all my life. EVs are even safer than gas cars when it comes to fires.

I’m not saying your wrong about teslas compared to other EVs. But even so, this is statistically negligible. Gas cars are almost 2 orders of magnitude more dangerous and I ain’t worrying about them either.

I said it before and I’ll say it again: every Tesla you see right now is an “older” Tesla. The new ones suck and everyone who ordered them was scammed by Elon Musk. It’s only going to get worse.

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Not to mention the fact it takes a lost lawsuit half the time for many other manufacturers to issue a recall. At least these are voluntary.

Because I can see the other comments here: Elon musk should be charged for fraud, Tesla is way overrated, Elons an idiot. You can believe all of this and still point out things a company does well

Don’t forget you can make your horn fart!

>Other cars don’t usually spontaneously explode either.

I see you weren't alive for the Ford Pinto.

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It's wild you can tell people like yourself didn't even read the article. They are fixing whatever this issue is with an over the air update pushed to the cars. Meaning no one even has to bring their car in to the shop.

Basically they updated the firmware (embedded software for hardware) and then realized that the update caused other issues so they are rolling it back to the previous version essentially.

Well said friend. I’ll raise you one. Also under criminal investigation for the misleadingly named ‘autopilot’ ending the lives of its owners.

I know this is hyperbole. But you can steer without power steering..

>Gonna need a source for this.

"Trust me bro."

OTA means over the air. They didn't "flash" the firmware like you'd expect from a traditional OEM, where you have to bring the car to the dealership to get your firmware updated. It happened overnight in the garage, without any customer needing to do anything.

"A recall is a recall" seems a little disingenuous; not all recalls are created equally, and some are handled faster/better than others.

The vehicles were not sent back, hence the name "recall" is a bit of a misnomer. That's just the regulatory term for making a safety improvement to the car. While technically correct, it will mislead many people.

The bad reporting on the company is an unfortunate, old, and tired pattern. Reddit's enthusiasm for it is a bit newer.

Soft recall is still recall.

This is always the most bullshit response to this kind of news. A recall isn’t defined by the fact you need to take the car into the dealership to be fixed. A recall is a safety issue. In this case the remedy is a software update.

The elon hate has morphed into straight up delusion lol

fuck elon musk, just kidding it's just a voluntary over the air update affect a small percentage of their cars, and 97% of them were fixed before the recall was put out there.

I keep thinking Elon tweets dumb shit ( like the Pelosi conspiracy junk) and I've had enough, but then r/technology gets hold a new overblown fake outrage story of the day like this and feel like I've got to go back to defending.

Internal combustion engines are more likely to catch fire, not less.

It’s funny how many recalls they have versus other manufacturers. I never once had to get a “software update” for my Toyotas, OTA or at the dealer

Well the electronics last a long time too. Just an example, a radio in 197x car is probably working just fine still today. The mechanical parts breakdown much faster. And also, much of the electronics are safety features. Example of that, old bell air vs new Malibu, same crash test. Old car driver dead, new car driver, bruised ankle possibly.

3x DOJ investigations, NHTSA, CA DMV, SEC, basically every alphabet agency is moving in.

40,000 is a very small number of vehicles in a recall.

Clearly you've never looked at fire frequency data. Tesla's are 50%+ more likely to burn than their contemporary ICE counterparts.

>Recalls for serious and dangerous problems don’t happen to other makes at the same frequency as Teslas.

GM recalled half a million cars earliest this year for defective seatbelts. Please provide data that shows Teslas are experiencing safety recalls at a hire rate than other manufacturers.

​

>Other cars don’t usually spontaneously explode either.

Chevy recalled 69000 Volts due to a risk of catching fire when they were charged to 100%.

These are problems that every manufacturer has.

This is 100% false.

You’re completely wrong.

What is your source for this? And is this by volume or by rate?

Do you guys think Tesla is the only car company that makes EVs?

The Ford Pinto didn’t spontaneously explode; it exploded when rear-ended because of the placement of the gas tank. That’s pretty much the direct opposite of spontaneous.

Given their market share, they might as well be.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a38225037/how-much-you-should-worry-about-ev-fires/

> Researchers from insurance deal site Auto Insurance EZ compiled sales and accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. The site found that hybrid vehicles had the most fires per 100,000 sales at 3474.5. There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles.

There are definitely recalls where traditional cars are in danger of exploding, I highly recommend people look into National Highway Traffic Safety Administration you can type in your VIN # and see all active recalls on your vehicle.

Source: worked for a car manufacturer and my job was to call people who’s cars were affected by recalls that were potentially deadly.

The amount of people who couldn’t be bothered to speak to me was insane, seriously even if you don’t want to talk to someone on the phone, go to the website to see if you have active recalls.

Tesla's ignite far more than their contemporary ICE counterparts.

https://www.iihs.org/media/c93b98d8-6a7d-44a1-810e-4468ec539e05/uIu4tg/HLDI%20Research/Fire%20losses/HLDI_FireLosses_1218.pdf

F these cars

That’s good to hear. For the younger folks, no matter how wealthy you are, there are consequences for flouting the law and ignoring rules. Yiu might be able to get away with recklessness for a while, but eventually things catch up with you.

Since when is having to acknowledge that your steering might fail a formality?

Also, Elon is pos. Thank you.

But... I just cited the fire frequency data? Conducted by a third party (a government institution)

Do you have anything to actually support this claim?

https://www.iihs.org/media/c93b98d8-6a7d-44a1-810e-4468ec539e05/uIu4tg/HLDI%20Research/Fire%20losses/HLDI_FireLosses_1218.pdf

Acknowledging the issue isn't. The word "recall" when nothing is being returned to the manufacturer in any way is. When other cars are recalled, they have to be brought in to a service center.

Right off the bat: this is already a cherry picked data set. You chose exclusively non-crash fires (a tiny minority of vehicle fires).

I question why we chose to focus on this tiny subset of vehicle fires. Is it, perhaps, because that's the dataset that EVs (and Teslas) underperform in?

When we focus on this subset, Teslas catch fire 50% more than ICE vehicles. When we widen our subset to all vehicle fires, ICE vehicles catch fire 6000% more than Teslas.

Strange.

Toyota has a higher recall quota than Tesla.

https://auto-institut.de/en/automotiveperformance/rueckruf-trends-der-globalen-automobilhersteller-im-langfristvergleich-2011-2021-referenzmarkt-usa/

There are many on those charts with greater frequency of fires than teslas.

And to reiterate: ALL of this is negligible. A ram pickup is more than 2x more likely to catch on fire than a Tesla model X (according to your source). And I’m not afraid of driving a ram.

Not really a recall although they do technically call it that, it was fixed with an over the air firmware update. But i guess if you include that in the title people wouldnt click the article.

Already fixed

I bet Toyota has a billion more cars and products on the street than Tesla

"Recalls for serious and dangerous problems don't happen to other makes at the same frequency as Tesla's"

Well that's just wrong. I've had cars from many manufacturers and I've always gotten similar recall noticed on all of them.

We can totally call out people's success and failures at the same time. No need to take one side or the other.

>Tesla, Inc. (Tesla) is recalling certain 2017-2021 Model S and Model X vehicles. The electronic power assist steering (EPAS) system may experience a loss of power steering assist when driving on rough roads or after hitting a pothole.
>
>Firmware release 2022.36 changed calibration values for the electronic power assist steering (EPAS) system. In rare cases on certain 2017-2021 Model S and Model X vehicles, the updated calibration values may result in reduced or lost power steering assist due to forces from external road dynamics (i.e., pot holes or bumps) being inadvertently classified as unexpected steering assist torque. Reduced or lost power steering assist does not affect steering control, but could require greater steering effort from the driver, particularly at low speeds.

Chronology

- On October 11, 2022, Tesla began broadly rolling out firmware release 2022.36 to the vehicle fleet, which included updated calibration values for the electronic power assist steering (EPAS) system to better detect unexpected steering assist torque.

- Beginning on October 18, 2022, Tesla identified an increasing rate of alerts related to the updated EPAS calibration values on certain 2017-2021 Model S and Model X vehicles.

- On October 19, 2022, Tesla began deploying firmware release 2022.36.5 to the vehicle fleet, which reverted the calibration values for the EPAS to pre-2022.36 values, while Engineering assessed potential root causes and evaluated the condition.

- From October 19, 2022, through October 24, 2022, Tesla investigated the alert occurrences and completed a risk assessment of the condition based on severity and rate of occurrence.

- On October 25, 2022, based on the risk assessment, Tesla made a determination to voluntarily recall the affected vehicles.

- As of November 1, 2022, Tesla identified 314 vehicle alerts for this condition among U.S. vehicles (received between October 11, 2022, and November 1, 2022) that are related to or may be related to this condition. Tesla is not aware of any injuries or deaths related to this condition.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2022/RCLRPT-22V818-6624.PDF

That's not what they said, try reading that again.

Adding onto this: this only counts non-crash fires (a tiny, cherry-picked subset of vehicle fires).

Lucky you. I can tell you it happens to the other manufacturers as well, from first hand experience. Except when it does, you gotta take the car to a dealership instead of just doing it at home.

BMW has entered the chat

Another Muskrat failure.

Laughs in BMW.

"Potential Power Steering Failure"

done

My Lexus can't even update the GPS navi map without paying hundreds the dealership, and my Subaru had went thru 2 firmware updates I had to do at the dealership.

They recalled the Bolt. They also bought my car back at full price (including taxes) minus a small mileage fee.

A RAM pickup is a small subset of FIAT models while 2 of 2 tesla vehicles that were eligible for this report are substantially higher than ICE to catch on fire.

Your claim that ICE catch on fire more often is total bullshit, tesla's are firebombs compared to aggregated ICE vehicles.

Yeah you’re spreading misinformation. This is not true

Move fast and break things.

It's not cherry picked, it's the only dataset that exists in the US (as far as I know)

The reason why the dataset is good is because it includes vehicle miles driven and is limited to the contemporary model years for tesla. Apples to apples.

Every car company has recalls like it. Just means bring it into the shop and we will fix it. Nothing to see here, move along

Failed twice in a row, impressive.

"The word "recall" is just a formality here."

"Since when is having to acknowledge that your steering might fail a formality?"

They didn't say that acknowledging an issue is a formality. They said the use of the word "recall" is the formality. In the classic sense, you would need to bring in your car somewhere to have a repair done, or even to update the firmware. This is not the case here. It was an over the air update.

A lot of recalls now a days are just updates. 70% of our cars today at Toyota are just updates.

Except all the Tesla engineers are still reviewing PRs on Twitter.

Cries in BMW

Spending all of his time on Twitter instead of power steering. smh

I agree that per mile driven is an important metric, and Teslas benefit from being newer than an average ICE vehicle.

But that's still far inferior to using every vehicle fire (in the dataset I cited above), due to how tiny this subset is. If you only pick non-crash fires, batteries will be disfavored heavily.

Seriously, Tesla produces, what… 4 vehicles? Toyota has been making cars for 75 years and has 14 current models.

They're comparing CONTEMPORARY model-year vehicles that spontaneously combust (not in an accident) and adjust for miles driven. Tesla's ignite more than ICE. This is not difficult.

All manufacturers have recalls, most aren't urgent and are often done when you bring it in for a logbook service.

Could just talk about the article.

>They're comparing CONTEMPORARY model-year vehicles

Heard ya loud and clear the first time, my guy. I just pointed out that yes, Tesla benefits from having newer models. The idea that comparing by same model year has merit isn't lost on me.

>spontaneously combust (not in an accident)

Tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny minority of vehicle fires. You selected the exact subset where EVs perform worse.

>Tesla's ignite more than ICE. This is not difficult.

Good lord. Here, maybe if I adopt your methods and capitalize the letters:

ONLY if you SELECT a TINY subset of the data do Teslas ignite more than ICE vehicles. This is an EGREGIOUS mischaracterization of their ACTUAL RELATIVE SAFETIES.

The difference isn't minor. It's not even close. There's a SIXTY FOLD difference between the two. This is largely due to the enormous reservoir of explosive liquid they carry around with them.

ICE vehicles ignite more than Teslas. This is not difficult.

Can you explain your link? I’m looking at the ‘highest claim frequencies’ and the model S isn’t even on the list, and the X is behind the Jeep Renegade and just above the Jeep Cherokee and wrangler? (jfc I think Jeeps are the true firebombs here lol)

That's because your old ass Toyota has ancient and inefficient technology. Toyota release software updates all the time

Except you don't even have to bring it in for service. I'll bet most of not all of the Tesla's in question were updated before this announcement even hit the news.

Yup, my Toyota recall had me bringing the car in for a few days.

For me, a recall is a massive repair bill for the manufacturer. Clearly, a online update doesn’t qualify as ‘recall”

I have Prius C 2012. No updates.

You're missing the point- why is their software shipped out so eagerly requiring recalls? It's great it's a software fix, but how many miles were affected Tesla's driving around with that?

No, you're missing the point.

The point is, this stuff happens to ALL companies. This is not exclusive to Tesla. Yet we only see posts about Tesla on this site.

I literally have a power steering column recall with my car that is not a Tesla. But since it's not a Tesla, you don't hear about it.

My wife's car has an issue with the transmission where you weren't really in park even when you put it in park.

I also have a bug with the dash requiring a software update. But I gotta bring it in to the dealer to get it updated.

You're on a tech subreddit. What would you expect?

Ah so other cars have no firmware or software in them, got it.

It is a recall in the sense that if the car fails to automatically update to this software version, it needs to be taken off the road and serviced immediately.

Calm down, replying doesn't require a downvote.

Pull the stats on software related recalls then? It's one thing having a wonky volume knob, another losing steering. Software related recalls (or even headaches) come up on here all the time- I recall a lot around bmw seats for example.

I’d expect moderators to be able to recognize the difference between hatesturbation and legitimate criticism and moderate accordingly.

I don't need to pull stats. You pull them. What I said is I have first hand experience that this happens across the board. I mentioned no stats.

It's neither.. it's an article? Why would that mean "hate"

Theres recalls out there now that dont even have a fix ready. Recalls are such a common thing im pretty sure this guy has never owned a car or checked for recalls and thinks they only happen if theyre on the front page of reddit

One of my favorite recalls was for my 06 mustang. I had issues filling up the gas tank. When filling up, it would kick off when the tank was only half full. There was a design issue with the gas tank.

Fords recommendation was: Use a different pump

I’m talking about the comments, not the article

>Can you explain your link? I’m looking at the ‘highest claim frequencies’ and the model S isn’t even on the list, and the X is behind the Jeep Renegade and just above the Jeep Cherokee and wrangler? (jfc I think Jeeps are the true firebombs here lol)

Just search for tesla, you'll find them. And yes, don't buy a jeep (or tesla)

Another article on this said an absurd percent of cars (97% I think) were already updated before the article was written. Such a non-issue of headline writers taking advantage of government technical wording for clicks.

A lot of OEMs just update ECUs at the dealership when you bring it in for maintenance and don’t tell you because it’s so minor - updated tuning values for the transmission controller or something

Maybe Elon wants to install Twitter on them.

It’s pretty clear there is a level of user action that is vastly different between these two cases. In one case the user performs no action and in another case the user returns their car to the dealership for the problem to be fixed, taking hours of their time.

That has nothing at all to do with the term recall.

A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards.

Tesla had a safety issue. It’s a recall

That’s fine for technical rule lawyering but it’s not very useful for communication to consumers. It’ll quickly become the boy who cried wolf.

I'll just go and buy a Toyota

You have no data and a lot of worthless paragraphs.

As software engineer this is scary, because I know well how easy is to have bugs. Sometime it’s not even the programmer but the tool that the programmer is using like the compiler.

Some essentials like steering would be better without software interaction.

Id support adding terminology to it. I’ve seen “OTA Recall”, “Soft Recall” but a recall is indeed a recall.

The downvotes because you people are so concerned about a company’s image that has done nothing but lie to you is hilarious

>And gasoline vehicles (i.e. the majority) are vastly more likely to catch fire than EVs are. This is according to accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. Tesla makes up a plurality of the EV portion of this data, and for every vehicle fire their cars undergo, the "average" vehicle catches fire over 61 times (1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles).

>You have no data

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

That's pretty scary knowing an update could get you into an accident

Post the data you fucking idiot

Steering aggressively to the right like Musk?

Seriously. I’ve never owned a vehicle that hasn’t had at least one recall.

You have to be one of the pettiest human beings I've ever met. If you wanted a link, you could've just asked for a link. Much as I'd like to tell you to shove it:

The oft-cited study is this one, compiled by insurance analysts and published to their website (and, ostensibly, independently verified).

The fire data itself is, again, from the NTSB, with sales data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics. It's all public and you're free to do a little legwork yourself, if you care to.

I'm not going to run the database searches for you, especially not after being called a "fucking idiot". You can take the study at face value, go verify it with the NTSB data yourself, or shut up about it.

Or I suppose you could keep spreading falsehoods and insulting people for pointing out you're wrong. I guess that's up to you at this point, isn't it?

Toyotas have had a ton of recalls over the years…

tips fedora at you

I believe Elon sold approx $4B worth of tesla stock recently. Not sure if it was before this news got out.

You don't understand "rates", do you?

Recalls : New cars sold

Tesla = 55%

Toyota = 191%

Verified power steering will be available for all buyers by the end of 2019.

The percentages look bullshit to me. They explain this as number of recalls in a given year divided by new registrations, which I’m assuming are registrations of the given make. However, those numbers are not related.

Firstly, newly registered cars most likely will be different models than those affected by recalls. The ratio mixes two different sets of data. At least from what I’ve seen new models are rarely subject to recalls, and the article definitely does not give any evidence to substantiate it’s approach.

Secondly, we get no context of the new registration trends. A brand losing market share will be appearing worse in the statistics than a brand gaining. It looks pretty clear to me why Volvo and Mitsubishi have such high percentages, with this approach.

A more valid statistic but much harder to assess accurately would be the total number of cars a given brand has on the market at the time of the recall.

A possible alternative approach could be to divide the number of recalls for a specific model year by the total number of units produced in a given model year and average them out across whole manufacturer gamut.

Either way the statistics the article presented do not look very trustworthy and seem to favour new and rising brands.

This is purely anecdotal and in your experience. I don’t think they experience significantly more recalls than other auto manufacturers

Shocked this isn’t downvoted -30000 votes for being accurate.

I only know "musk" and "bad

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That is already not the case in semi-modern cars. However the complexity of software with Tesla and their insistence to have everything running on the main computer is something I don't like.

They compare total vehicles for that brand sold and recalled in the time frame.

There are a lot of Toyota on the road recalls happen not only for new cars. I think a lot of the recalled Toyota were some before the time frame and that is increasing the numbers.

On the other hand there were basically no Tesla before 2011.

That’s one thing Tesla gets right …. My Chrysler needs an update and guess what .. I need to go waste a few hours at the dealer to have them upload the new software during a scheduled visit. Dealer appointments are backlogged for over a month and a half as well.

These plastic Tesla’s are gonna start to fall apart now that Musk attention span has drifted again.

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This is what Reddit has become. Bring every Elon Musk related new to the top and then every comment be like: “Elon bad”, “Elon baad”, “Baa!”.

>On the other hand there were basically no Tesla before 2011.

This doesn't change the rate. Toyota was selling cars for longer but also recalling then for longer. Tesla wasn't able to recall cars during that period, but they didn't sell cars either. It's not relevant to interpreting the results.

Ok. Scenario: you sell lots of cars. From say 2000 to 2010 you have an airbag in the cars that in 2012 is shown to have a problem. So you do a recall in 2012. As you just recalled 10 years of production you obviously recalled more cars then you sold in 2012.

That is a problem that a company that basically didn't sell cars before the reference time frame can't have.

Thats not good

-7 years of driving around- “oh hey, forgot to mention that your airbag is actually a claymore”

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Bolts were lighting themselves on fire.

We'd have to see the average age of the products that were recalled. In my mind, recalls usually happen pretty soon after a model is released. It doesn't take 10 years for something to need to be recalled. I think it usually shows up in the first two years. I'd have to check though.

The average time between release and recall should decrease, if over-the-air software updates are being considered recalls. Those will only get more common.

If no one else can get you the IRS probably will