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be-like-water-2022 t1_iychjpy wrote

Reply to comment by alc4pwned in Competitors chip away at Tesla's US electric vehicle share by Sorin61

"We've got to go to non-negotiated price. We've got to go to 100 percent online. There's no inventory (at dealerships), it goes directly to the customer. And 100 percent remote pickup and delivery,"

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-online-only-with-no-dealer-markups-says-ceo-farley/

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alc4pwned t1_iycivvw wrote

They've taken a similar approach to Tesla, the MSRP of the F150 Lightning is massively up. So sure, technically no dealer markup but instead a markup directly from the manufacturer.

Also, the dealer markups aren't just arbitrary right. They can get away with those because there are shortages. Meaning that even if Ford sells cars online without markups, that doesn't mean you just get to buy a car at MSRP. You'll be waiting a very long time. They had to stop taking Mustang Mach E orders recently.

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heyimjason t1_iycko7f wrote

They had to stop taking orders because of low pricing, super high demand, and supply chain issues. They’re not having people wait for orders as some sort of punishment. They offered the Maverick, a hybrid truck, at a base price of 20k. Of course they were going to get flooded with orders.

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alc4pwned t1_iycl44p wrote

Right, so because of shortages caused by those things. That’s what I said. The point is that just comparing the MSRP of other EVs with the current MSRP of the Model 3 isn’t telling the whole story. Those cars are either way more expensive than their MSRP suggests or are basically unavailable.

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heyimjason t1_iycllhs wrote

You also tried to paint it as manufacturers marking up high because they can. That’s generally not happening.

Having to wait for orders due to having a ton of orders is a pretty good indicator that as supply chain issues clear up, it’s going to put a lot more of a squeeze on Tesla.

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alc4pwned t1_iycm76n wrote

Oh. Well yes, I’m still saying that. Because it definitely is happening in the cases where manufacturers are doing direct sales. So Ford and Tesla. Look at the F150 lightning configurator, those are not the prices it launched at. Cars not being sold directly are getting dealer markups. I’ve been saying that one or the other is happening.

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heyimjason t1_iycnl1j wrote

Where in the US do you think manufacturers are selling directly to consumers, exactly? Even Tesla barely gets away with that in many states.

Dealer markups aren’t MSRP markups. Dealerships suck. So do the laws requiring them.

Ford could have sold the Maverick with a base of 30k, easily, but went with a MSRP of 20.

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alc4pwned t1_iycx3l5 wrote

>Where in the US do you think manufacturers are selling directly to consumers, exactly? Even Tesla barely gets away with that in many states.

I already said it's Tesla and Ford. Clearly you're aware that Tesla sells all their cars this way. As for Ford, I guess they don't yet. But they've said they intend to sell all their EVs direct to consumers in the near future as well. There is an article posted in this exact comment thread discussing that. Regardless, they have significantly marked up the F150 lightning themselves, like I've pointed out several times.

>Dealer markups aren’t MSRP markups

Yes, that is my entire point. I'm saying you can't compare Tesla's MSRP with other cars' MSRPs because Tesla has a markup built in whereas others don't and instead get a markup added at the dealer.

>Ford could have sold the Maverick with a base of 30k, easily, but went with a MSRP of 20.

This is a discussion about EVs. But also yeah, affordability is a big selling point of the Maverick. I think having the base model hit the $20k price point was important for them.

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heyimjason t1_iyd00fl wrote

>it's Tesla and Ford

I'm not aware of Ford selling direct to consumer in any state. Where do you see that happening? And I didn't dispute that Tesla does it - I clearly stated that they have issues with it and can't sell direct in all 50 states - and they have to employ a lot of loopholes that will likely soon be closed in order to sell in some of those states.

>Tesla has a markup built in whereas others don't and instead get a markup added at the dealer

Tesla's prices are just needlessly high. When and if the dealership lobby gets put in its place and manufacturers can start selling DTC, do you really think they're going to jack up their prices so they stay the same as at dealerships? Hell no - that would just be sending customers to the competition in droves. Ford's CEO has even mentioned how consumers would be able to save thousands by buying direct. Most manufacturers would likely sell DTC at or near the prices the dealerships are paying.

>This is a discussion about EVs

Fair point, but a $20k hybrid is crazy. A $20k truck is super crazy. A $20k hybrid truck is just not something I'd have expected to see before 2030. And their fully gas models of the Maverick are actually considerably more expensive. This makes me wonder if when they do put out a fully electric Maverick that it might not be even cheaper. But the point is that Ford could have easily set the base at $25k, or $30k, and still gotten plenty of orders.

Yeah, the manufacturers are in it for money. That's how business works. But they're not trying to completely screw the consumers like the dealerships do.

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alc4pwned t1_iyd22r4 wrote

> I'm not aware of Ford selling direct to consumer in any state. Where do you see that happening?

I already said they're not yet but that they intend to. Again - the point there was really that they have marked up the F150 Lightning significantly themselves.

> And I didn't dispute that Tesla does it

Yet you responded to me with "Where in the US do you think manufacturers are selling directly to consumers, exactly?"

> Tesla's prices are just needlessly high.

Except, they're not. The current MSRP of the Model 3 compares pretty favorably with the MSRP + dealer markup you pay for similar EVs.

> When and if the dealership lobby gets put in its place and manufacturers can start selling DTC, do you really think they're going to jack up their prices so they stay the same as at dealerships?

In normal times? No. When there are extreme shortages? Yes. Tesla and Ford have significantly increased the prices of their EVs in response to shortages.

>But the point is that Ford could have easily set the base at $25k, or $30k, and still gotten plenty of orders.

I mean, I'd imagine that most Maverick orders are spec'ed to $30k+. I think on some level, the positive press generated by the $20k starting price is selling more expensive versions of the maverick.

Worth noting that the $20k Maverick is pretty stripped down inside and isn't AWD.

> Yeah, the manufacturers are in it for money. That's how business works. But they're not trying to completely screw the consumers like the dealerships do.

Agreed. But clearly they're not above jacking up prices when there are extreme shortages.

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