Submitted by Sorin61 t3_z8ib3s in technology
Cerberusz t1_iyc2j3z wrote
Reply to comment by heyimjason in Competitors chip away at Tesla's US electric vehicle share by Sorin61
They will likely not be more affordable. Tesla’s vertical integration makes it really difficult to win on price.
nhavar t1_iyca401 wrote
What's a base Model 3 right now? 46k for 272 miles of range while Chevrolet was pushing their Bolt EV down for 2023 to 26k for about the same range. How many other competitors are already hitting right in Tesla's price range today; Kia EV6 48.5k, VW ID4 43.5k, Nissan Ariya 43k, Volvo S60 42k, I mean a BMW 330e is listed at 43k MSRP. As traditional car manufacturers begin to shift their product lines they will push those prices down with more bare bones offerings. At the same time also filling in the premium and luxury market gaps with a wider range of options that are familiar to brand loyalists wanting to make the switch. You see it with the Mach E and the Lightning, BMW and Cadillac. Tesla is going to have to do better on price, improve quality, and start offering more differentiation than they do today. They're still far to much of a premium priced product.
Cerberusz t1_iycxdb0 wrote
Chevy loses money on each bolt.
For the other automakers, they are all priced right around the base model 3 price. They battery is most expensive part of the vehicle. Tesla’s estimated battery costs are about 20% lower due to vertical integration.
Tesla’s have been the number one selling car in each category they’ve entered, so it’s going to be a lot easier for Tesla to move downmarket, than for others to move upmarket.
According to JD Power, Tesla’s build quality is still above Volkswagen, Audi and Volvo.
alc4pwned t1_iycgbeb wrote
Misleading since you need to pay massive dealer markups on top of MSRP to actually get any of those other vehicles. Whereas Tesla instead built that into their MSRP. The Model 3 started at $38k just a year ago.
Also, the Bolt is a much lower tier vehicle than the base Model 3 in every way other than range (which is still slightly worse). Especially if you go for the base $26k version of the car.
Edit: Do the people downvoting this think that yes, you can buy the listed EVs at MSRP? No dealer markups required? Good luck with that.
be-like-water-2022 t1_iychjpy wrote
"We've got to go to non-negotiated price. We've got to go to 100 percent online. There's no inventory (at dealerships), it goes directly to the customer. And 100 percent remote pickup and delivery,"
alc4pwned t1_iycivvw wrote
They've taken a similar approach to Tesla, the MSRP of the F150 Lightning is massively up. So sure, technically no dealer markup but instead a markup directly from the manufacturer.
Also, the dealer markups aren't just arbitrary right. They can get away with those because there are shortages. Meaning that even if Ford sells cars online without markups, that doesn't mean you just get to buy a car at MSRP. You'll be waiting a very long time. They had to stop taking Mustang Mach E orders recently.
heyimjason t1_iycko7f wrote
They had to stop taking orders because of low pricing, super high demand, and supply chain issues. They’re not having people wait for orders as some sort of punishment. They offered the Maverick, a hybrid truck, at a base price of 20k. Of course they were going to get flooded with orders.
alc4pwned t1_iycl44p wrote
Right, so because of shortages caused by those things. That’s what I said. The point is that just comparing the MSRP of other EVs with the current MSRP of the Model 3 isn’t telling the whole story. Those cars are either way more expensive than their MSRP suggests or are basically unavailable.
heyimjason t1_iycllhs wrote
You also tried to paint it as manufacturers marking up high because they can. That’s generally not happening.
Having to wait for orders due to having a ton of orders is a pretty good indicator that as supply chain issues clear up, it’s going to put a lot more of a squeeze on Tesla.
alc4pwned t1_iycm76n wrote
Oh. Well yes, I’m still saying that. Because it definitely is happening in the cases where manufacturers are doing direct sales. So Ford and Tesla. Look at the F150 lightning configurator, those are not the prices it launched at. Cars not being sold directly are getting dealer markups. I’ve been saying that one or the other is happening.
heyimjason t1_iycnl1j wrote
Where in the US do you think manufacturers are selling directly to consumers, exactly? Even Tesla barely gets away with that in many states.
Dealer markups aren’t MSRP markups. Dealerships suck. So do the laws requiring them.
Ford could have sold the Maverick with a base of 30k, easily, but went with a MSRP of 20.
alc4pwned t1_iycx3l5 wrote
>Where in the US do you think manufacturers are selling directly to consumers, exactly? Even Tesla barely gets away with that in many states.
I already said it's Tesla and Ford. Clearly you're aware that Tesla sells all their cars this way. As for Ford, I guess they don't yet. But they've said they intend to sell all their EVs direct to consumers in the near future as well. There is an article posted in this exact comment thread discussing that. Regardless, they have significantly marked up the F150 lightning themselves, like I've pointed out several times.
>Dealer markups aren’t MSRP markups
Yes, that is my entire point. I'm saying you can't compare Tesla's MSRP with other cars' MSRPs because Tesla has a markup built in whereas others don't and instead get a markup added at the dealer.
>Ford could have sold the Maverick with a base of 30k, easily, but went with a MSRP of 20.
This is a discussion about EVs. But also yeah, affordability is a big selling point of the Maverick. I think having the base model hit the $20k price point was important for them.
heyimjason t1_iyd00fl wrote
>it's Tesla and Ford
I'm not aware of Ford selling direct to consumer in any state. Where do you see that happening? And I didn't dispute that Tesla does it - I clearly stated that they have issues with it and can't sell direct in all 50 states - and they have to employ a lot of loopholes that will likely soon be closed in order to sell in some of those states.
>Tesla has a markup built in whereas others don't and instead get a markup added at the dealer
Tesla's prices are just needlessly high. When and if the dealership lobby gets put in its place and manufacturers can start selling DTC, do you really think they're going to jack up their prices so they stay the same as at dealerships? Hell no - that would just be sending customers to the competition in droves. Ford's CEO has even mentioned how consumers would be able to save thousands by buying direct. Most manufacturers would likely sell DTC at or near the prices the dealerships are paying.
>This is a discussion about EVs
Fair point, but a $20k hybrid is crazy. A $20k truck is super crazy. A $20k hybrid truck is just not something I'd have expected to see before 2030. And their fully gas models of the Maverick are actually considerably more expensive. This makes me wonder if when they do put out a fully electric Maverick that it might not be even cheaper. But the point is that Ford could have easily set the base at $25k, or $30k, and still gotten plenty of orders.
Yeah, the manufacturers are in it for money. That's how business works. But they're not trying to completely screw the consumers like the dealerships do.
alc4pwned t1_iyd22r4 wrote
> I'm not aware of Ford selling direct to consumer in any state. Where do you see that happening?
I already said they're not yet but that they intend to. Again - the point there was really that they have marked up the F150 Lightning significantly themselves.
> And I didn't dispute that Tesla does it
Yet you responded to me with "Where in the US do you think manufacturers are selling directly to consumers, exactly?"
> Tesla's prices are just needlessly high.
Except, they're not. The current MSRP of the Model 3 compares pretty favorably with the MSRP + dealer markup you pay for similar EVs.
> When and if the dealership lobby gets put in its place and manufacturers can start selling DTC, do you really think they're going to jack up their prices so they stay the same as at dealerships?
In normal times? No. When there are extreme shortages? Yes. Tesla and Ford have significantly increased the prices of their EVs in response to shortages.
>But the point is that Ford could have easily set the base at $25k, or $30k, and still gotten plenty of orders.
I mean, I'd imagine that most Maverick orders are spec'ed to $30k+. I think on some level, the positive press generated by the $20k starting price is selling more expensive versions of the maverick.
Worth noting that the $20k Maverick is pretty stripped down inside and isn't AWD.
> Yeah, the manufacturers are in it for money. That's how business works. But they're not trying to completely screw the consumers like the dealerships do.
Agreed. But clearly they're not above jacking up prices when there are extreme shortages.
nhavar t1_iydpbgc wrote
Car buyers are increasingly using the internet to find dealerships that go at or below MSRP especially with EV's lately. Manufacturers are also leaning toward direct to consumer to cut out those markups and take more of the profit for themselves. Dealers are seeing the writing on the wall.
Your main argument was about affordability not margin, not profit, not features, affordability.
About a year and a half ago now I bought the 2022 Bolt EV 2lt. This was before the price drop. I got it for 4k below MSRP. At the time I was also looking at the Model 3 which was significantly more than the Bolt for not a lot of added value for me. Range was my biggest concern. The Bolt gets 269 miles. The Model 3 gets 273 miles. 4 miles difference for isn't worth 10k or more to me. I don't care if Chevrolet is taking a loss to get a foothold in the market. I care about what comes out of my wallet. That's what most consumers care about.
Companies like Chevrolet will start having more vehicles in that just under 30k market space trying to work their way down to the subcompact market eventually. At the same time they're improving their profitability in the premium and luxury markets by offering their best selling models as updated EV versions and having a hard time keeping up with demand. That means they have some room for going higher on price on those models and finding space for manufacturing improvements to get to market faster at lower cost. That's a constant process within the automotive industry. Companies are investing in their own battery tech, finding strategic partnerships, figuring out recycling, and looking at all the ways they can significantly reduce costs by switching to EV manufacturing in the long term. So prices will be driven down.
alc4pwned t1_iydr6j5 wrote
Most EVs are definitely not going for MSRP. Yes you can find dealerships that will allow you to order for MSRP, but you’re going to be waiting for a very very long time for that car to arrive if it’s a desirable model like the Ioniq 5. As in, a year or more.
Yes, I am talking about affordability specifically for vehicles comparable to the Model 3. The Bolt is in a different category. It’s much smaller, is pretty low performance, and has a spartan interior. Say what you want about Tesla QC, but their interior is obviously more upscale.
The Bolt was also much easier to find around the timeframe you’re talking about because of all the battery fire issues. So, that’s a thing.
> I care about what comes out of my wallet. That's what most consumers care about.
It’s what some consumers care about. If all consumers were like you, the average new car value wouldn’t be $46k. The Bolt is not a new car, it’s been around for a while now. Tesla has massively outsold it despite being more expensive. Cost is definitely not the top priority of a good chunk of consumers.
> Companies like Chevrolet will start having more vehicles in that just under 30k market space trying to work their way down to the subcompact market eventually
Have you seen their pricing on the Silverado EV and the Hummer EV? GM makes a cheap EV yes, but I don’t think that’s where their focus will be moving forward. Their whole business is centered around selling huge expensive vehicles currently.
nhavar t1_iye9spr wrote
You're talking in circles. The conversation was about affordability. That's where you started and now your propping up why it's okay that the Tesla isn't affordable and should be in the premium space. Cost is absolutely a huge driver for tons of consumers. Discounting that is just stupid. A huge argument happening right now against EVs is about affordability to the budget minded segment of the population looking to replace their current vehicles.
Then you go on to ignore everything I said about how traditional car makers will fill up both the budget end and the premium end of the market with their vehicles (e.g. the Silverado EV and Hummer EV are in that premium part of the market). You're not even listening, you're just responding. Good luck talking to yourself.
alc4pwned t1_iyebtxz wrote
I'm talking about affordability within the same product category. The Bolt is clearly not in that category. Your argument here is akin to complaining that the Mercedes S Class is overpriced because the Toyota Corolla is cheaper.
I think I responded to your argument, I didn't ignore it. Disagreeing with you is not the same thing as ignoring you.
[deleted] t1_iyc7m2u wrote
Lol r/technology historically has a horse in this race for some reason. It’s not worth it dude.
[deleted] t1_iycczvz wrote
[removed]
Badfickle t1_iyd3q8n wrote
Seriously this sub is so divorced from reality.
Cerberusz t1_iycvu0m wrote
Oh I know. I’ve been down this road before. The bias is insane.
[deleted] t1_iycwycp wrote
It’s desperate. Reddit is night and day since it was realized you can use this platform to persuade people. From crowd funding to under the table “understandings with mods”. This place fell apart. Nothing is rocking like that anymore.
Cerberusz t1_iycxruk wrote
I’ve noticed a huge shift in the last couple of years. You will get downvoted in this sub for saying anything neutral or positive about Tesla even if it is factual. Economics and Economy have become subs where you get downvoted into oblivion for actually talking about economic principles, and anything that doesn’t go along with the “eat the rich” narrative.
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