This is interesting. I’d love to see how this turns out for the EU if I’m still alive.

I’m jealous about how they care for their environment. I just came off a one month vacay there and appreciated how they care for their land and such.

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I think it’s as much a baked in part of society as it is the result of any policy. Like, when I was in Germany and Belgium in the summer, compared to the UK it was striking how little litter there was, especially on the sides of motorways and places like that.

Yes! Same! European cities also have people who clean the streets too.

Granted we have that in the US, but I only see them on the roads and side of major interstates.

I don’t see much litter in the streets, but our sidewalks and roads are dirty if you compare them to some European cities.

I also believe since Europe is older than the US, they hold onto their old architecture and older roads so they care for them better.

That’s a good point about the relative ages of Europe and the US, perhaps that has something to do with it. The UK doesn’t quite have the same excuse!

Honestly, few things make me angrier on a daily basis than seeing litter everywhere. I just can’t get into the headspace of someone who thinks it’s cool just to chuck their crap on the floor.

Powered by 100% natural Russian coal 👍

the end of an era a sad day for the car community but a better day from climste activists, now if only ev production was cleaner and sustainable that gas

The market will take care of them before 2030. Once cheaper batteries and more affordable EVs are available, no one is going to buy ICE cars anymore. They won't have any value on the market for used cars

I bet they love this in Northern Scandinavia where electric cars are almost useless.

We’re just waiting on batteries at this point. The decision is already clear , electric transportation is superior in almost every metric

Why??

There are plenty of electric cars in northern Norway.

This is 13 years in the future. Compare electric vehicles from 13 years ago to those today.

They don't do well in cold temps. It's an issue that a lot of the auto industry is now looking at.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marshallshepherd/2022/02/12/the-electric-vehiclecold-weather-thing-is-real-but-not-a-showstopper/

Edit: so absolutely none of you dumbfucks read articles or work in the auto industry.

I'm fine with this as long as they don't go after classic cars. I'll be damned if they come for my 69 Camaro.

You just won't be able to buy new fosil fuel cars, thats it. Banning already bought cars would cause serious issues. Even 12 years from now, unless they plan to give them away for free.

Sweet. I should be dead by then.

We need to stop bleeding so much methane into our atmosphere as well as take measures like this with fossil fuel vehicles. The measly amount of greenhouse gas excreted when I drive less than 8 miles for groceries every 2 weeks is nothing compared to what industry is pumping out night and day every second at a dizzying rate. Methane is many times worse of a greenhouse gas when compared at scale to what is coming out of our cars.

poor farmers and ranchers... they'll be driving the same vehicles for decades on end, having to fix those things endlessly...

also, hope everybody likes lithium in their water... (heres hoping they get hydrogen fuel sorted out...

Some parts of the EU, sure, others? Not so much. Last time I was in Rome and surrounding area it was a dump, with garbage and litter everywhere. The Baltic stats have been pretty good about being clean though.

Not sure about Europe but a while back in the UK there was a huge scheme where the government would give you a lot of money towards a newer car to get some really polluting hunks off the roads. Could do something like that I suppose.

You mean like Norway, Iceland and Sweden. Which are cold basically everywhere during winter, and have the highest per capita ownership of electric cars already?

Maybe read the article?

Understandable, I was in turkey (not apart of the EU obviously) talking to a French guy and he said Paris is disgusting.

Maybe you should because it literally just comes down to "you use the heating when it's cold so think about your maximum range and charging" which is no different to a petrol car during summer with AC

California and China already are leaders in this area

"During colder temperatures, EV batteries do not charge as fast, are less efficient, and will be more affected by electric functions within the car like heating, regenerative braking or seat warming. Why is this the case? Unlike a typical combustion engine-powered car, an EV relies on a battery."

Again... learn to read the article before angrily responding and looking incredibly stupid.

Here's another quote in the article where they're speaking to the American Chemical Society....

"When the battery is used to power a car (discharge mode), lithium ions move out of the graphite anode and cross the electrolyte toward the cathode....lithium atoms that are intercalated in the graphite are oxidized at the anode, which leaves free electrons behind that can travel through an electric circuit.” An electrolyte, by the way, is a gel or liquid that can basically carry electric charge via ions. When the temperature is cold, these chemical reactions are slowed in both directions."

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While its true that methane is a much stronger greenhouse gas then CO2, it also breaks down in our atmosphere within 20 years so there is no accumulative effect.

The CO2 you emit during your groceries shopping trip in contrast stays in the carbon cycle for hundreds or even thousands of years, contributing to climate change that whole time.

Also, many people drive a lot more then 8 miles every 2 weeks. And if you're just driving 8 miles every 2 weeks anyway just keep your old gas car. This isn't a outright ban.

The bottom line however is that we need to do all the things. complaining one measure doesn't fix everything is a BS distraction.

The battery chemistry favors the same conditions that humans prefer.

Cold regions, that are Worlds famous for skiing, will not like the pure electric adoption laws. The cars will continue to work, but at a reduced range. (Think 10% less.)

In Norway Battery Electric Vehicles made up 77.7% of new car sales in September.

Source

Even if the EU grid was 100% coal fired that would STILL be less polluting then ICE cars. That's how inefficient ICE cars are.

I don't think it will go that fast. there will be a few challenges around charging at home or work being easier for some then others, and some niche cases were being able to refuel quickly is a significant advantage.

And some of the materials needed for batteries are also going up in price, offsetting some of the gains in battery tech.

Having said that yes, the transition is already starting and will be well under way before we hit 2035. But this legislation puts a dot on the horizon that the relevant industries can work towards (mainly the car industry, the grid and charging infrastructure builders)

Netherlands (some cities) did the same thing with old diesel cars (pre 2000 cars).

But those old diesel cars were banned from entering the cities, however the cars in questions are so old that the compensation was worth more than the car itself often.

Electrification yes. Carbon reduction? Not so much…

Bugger, I was planning on buying a V12 Lamborghini on my 65th birthday.....

Population isn't the right metric.

Look at car sales totals, and EV car adoption rates in California.

That's already a solved problem by warming up the battery before use.

Battery cost going up is a temporary situation due to the production not ramping up fast enough to meet demand. That should only last a couple of years. For people that can't park in a garage, a weekly fast charge should be enough, no one is doing more than 500km per week, at least in europe. Fast charging networks keep on improving and they are catching up quite fast. Recharging times are also going down continously, and I can imagine that in 8 years they should be at least half of the current best. Innovation in battery is going very fast

Maybe you should read again. Its not saying they don't work, but that you need to think about it in cold weather. The battery charges slower, and heating etc puts additional requirements on the battery supply but the article literally says it's not a particularly big deal you just need to factor that in and not aim to drive the stated maximum distance without a charge. Again exactly like a petrol car with AC...

That's a different topic. In general, yeah, States are going about this wrong by forcing laws on consumers and are not focusing on commercial and industrial reduction nearly enough.

Scotland is banning certain cars from entering big cities soon.

Norway is a long country. Unless you can show that the percentage is same in the north, it's worthless to throw that statistic around.

Low population density, long distances to everything, infrastructure, no service nearby, batteries and electronics don't work well in those temperatures...etc

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You couldn't be more wrong, considering that Norway is the leading country in Europe with EV adoption

Rightly so. No individual State should have that power.

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this is not a good thing

Cheaper batteries, I hope. But I fully expect lithium rich countries to look at this news with dollar symbols in their eyes.

By 2025 they’ll abandon the all EV course and say hybrid is the way to go. Because it is. If we go all EV, what happens in a deep freeze or hurricane type event when the power is out for several days? We know we are going to get more of these extreme weather events, we gonna really paint ourselves in a corner? Governments are the biggest problem. I wonder how much CO2 is released making movies and shows? Everybody gets on their favorite social media app to bitch about the climate while standing in line for their $8 coffee. Got the CO2 burned in the supply chain as well as the massive amount of diesel burned to build that tiny little building you get your daily fix from. It’s our spending habits we need to take the most drastic changes with. Hybrid vehicles take care of us at the individual level. That’s not where the most drastic changes are needed.

That's not entirely true. There will always be a market for sports car enthusiasts who want a lightweight car with an ICE, a manual gearbox and rear-wheel drive that can be modified with aftermarket parts. I know cause I'm one of them. If you don't believe me, look up the prices of old Supras, RX-7s and Skylines.

It will turn out poorly for anything east of germany.
Our countries are poorer(median wage is about 1/3rd of median german wage), and even second hand electrics are atleast 40-50% more expensive than same year combustion.
And i dont see this trend reversing.
I will fuck up personal mobility for poorer countries, and especially disabled people on govt assistance, a properly modified car is already a luxury for most of them, it will be worse.
EU has one big problem with sweeping things like that for environment they base their decisions on countries where consumer can absorb the extra cost without much stress, but for 1/3rd of the union those changes are catastrophic to people.
For example as part of our EU agreement our country was supposed to "liberalize the electricity supply market", we did that and now we pay a price for KWh that is 10% higher than germany while our wages are 1/3-1/2 of theirs.
Sweeping changes in EU while in general are a good idea, they often fuck over the little/poorer countires.

Northern Scandinavia, as already discussed. Norway is a long country.

The US had a ‘cash for clunkers’ program too. It was mostly to prop up the auto industry during the Great Recession, but also to get jalopies off the road too.

I know it's sentimental so don't take this as anything but an impersonal remark but all those old cars need to go imo. I know it's a huge change but even making this ban take place in 13 years seems like way too much waiting, way too much thumb twiddling, and way too much opportunity for reversal only to then still have a gas car market for the next ten years.

They care for their cities and people no doubt, but I wouldn't say their environment. There's still a long way to go in terms of their energy dependency and relative overconsumption, so while the countries themselves don't produce much pollution, the real problem is what they import from other countries. Similar thing for the US, only they have both problems instead of just one.

California has a very long way to go in terms of environmentalism, they barely even have public transit

I suppose it's a chicken and an egg case, but will that be enough time to give countries to build out a whole infrastructure to support charging? Maybe some super battery will get invented by then, but so far it's just sci-fi.

Nothing saves the environment like throwing sand into millions of perfectly usable cars engines that were already built.

I literally never said they don't work. You cannot read. I said they have issues, which are outlined in the article. What a joke.

Seeing as that's not the case with EVs from Tesla, Ford, Peugeot, etc.... the problem is not solved yet.

EV are really not ready for prime time yet and not as environmental friendly as claimed.

Why? You can replace the guts with electric with no issue and if you want the sound you can just put a speaker in it. Why should pollution spreading machines be allowed on the road when the whole point is they need to be removed?

That’s at least 5 years too late

I assume you didnt see Berlin (from someone living in Berlin)

It’s also German culture in this case, Paris and Marseille give London a run for its money

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Not going to happen without a significantly improved charging infrastructure.

I am losing track of all the European deadlines I have to miss. Agree with it though.

And do you think that 8 years are not enough to build it?

You know right that EV vehicles have much more acceleration and stability than ICEs right? Or is it just the noise that you like?

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Personally think 35 is too far off, and it should be a phased ban from 2030

Ban larger less fuel efficient ICE cars first, complete ban by 2035.

It's about emotion, not logic nor numbers. There's something raw about ICE vehicles that EVs don't have. Btw I'm not against EVs, I think the shift towards EVs is good.

How are they going to have the infrastructure in place to charge these cars? How do you generate power to charge these cars?

There is a lot involved here.

That’s convenient. They won’t have any gas by 2030.

Tractors and farm equipment aren’t included in this. Farmers will be fine.

I had a coworker that would just toss his empty coffee cup on the ground on the way into work. He would literally pass 5 trash cans in the next 2 minutes, but I guess he figured that was too long to hold onto something he didn't need anymore.

Lol talking about people not reading the article and you didn't even get to the end of the title.

I live near one of the coldest cities in the world, EVs are more common all the time, and one user said he sees about a 10% drop in range due in the winter. That means that if I bought a brand-new EV and never parked it indoors that it would go from a 500 km range to 450 in the winter. I can live with that. Even with a slow charger, it should be back at full every day before we leave home.

In the EU’s case, this makes sense because they don’t have too bad of a climate, and because they have no oil sources anyway. In a place like Canada though, oil should be the better option not only because Alberta can supply, strengthens its economy in doing so, and because electric isn’t too efficient in our climate.

Really... so you want to say I didn't read and then you agree with me that there are issues (ie a 10% drop in efficiency)... yeah, you're not very smart....

It's usually with smaller cars, but there is a whole "hobbyist" platform out there were folks replace combustion engines with Eletric.

Hey! They project to spend $100 billion+ on high speed rail! Too... ummm... Merced?

No, I'm saying a 10% drop isn't an issue.

To clarify, where I live it is recommended to not get below 25% fuel remaining, preferably not below 50%, in the winter. Low fuel levels can lead to frost in your tank and then to frozen fuel lines. So this would be a positive impact in my region.

If you are switching to an EV it is better for the environment. While you are losing the pollution that went into making the car and you need to make the EV it’s still greener. This is because the vast majority of an ICE car’s pollution comes from using it. Basically only hybrids are efficient enough to bother keeping.

If the goal is never set it will drag on way longer. Better to set an aggressive goal now and get the ball rolling. The law can be repealed or extended if it turns out we are failing but if we are failing we will have much bigger issues.

Issues that are easily mitigated.

They're still issues that are actively being worked on in the industry.

Then thank God you don't build cars. Jesus, you're dumb.

I'm not switching. I'm talking about making a car that exists, run longer/indefinitely.

pickup trucks and vans?

Ford Lightning? Others to come? Electric school buses are coming, I’m sure vans will still be a thing.

cost per mile plus longevity is of huge importance to agriculture as they have lots of miles to cover carrying heavy loads over rough terrain without high wattage available...

And the electric truck from Ford in 2022 has 240 miles of range, considering how much they've improved in just the last ten I imagine by 2035 they will be exponentially better. 12 years is a long long time in the tech world.

it doesn't when towing/hauling or off road...

iv shoped these things, the tech isn't there... the battery replacements alone would set most ag into the red...

the improvements are happening fast, but as with most tech there's a burst and then it slows down, as you get closer to real physical limitations of a technology the harder it is to improve...

al;so very little of lithium batteries are actually recycled...

So I'm dumb because I've experienced this before, or I'm dumb because the mechanic said this was the problem? Just trying to clarify.

The tech isn't there, today. With some countries banning fossil fuels in cars the technology will continue to improve drastically over the coming years and charging stations will become as common as gas stations. I agree that Lithium Ion isn't great but we're working on replacements for those too.

2035 is a long ways away, have some faith in the technology catching up. All you're really doing is being pessimistic presuming the tech has gotten as good as it's going to get, I promise you that's not the case.

i just don't think batteriie driven vehicles is applicable in many scenarios...

why not just push for higher mpg?
diesel hybrids would work great for rural work, carry tons of millage and torque, get bio diesel tax breaks and bam carbon nuetral, more so than electric vehicles in many countries...

but out right banning ice is like banning gravel roads because they suck in the city...

i have the most hope for nuclear generated hydrogen, but i'm pretty alone on that it seems...

You're dumb because I'm a quality engineer that has access to the data on this problem lol

I'd love to see higher MPG but unless someone forces them to do it automakers have no incentive to do it. I believe Obama had gotten some passed to force them to invest in more efficient vehicles but Trump cancelled them so here we are, now everyone is all-in on electric what do you do.

I think electric vehicles will become completely different animals by time ICE is getting phased out and if it's not up to certain jobs I'm sure exceptions will be made so farmers can still do their jobs until the technology catches up. I personally believe by 2035 we'll both be in awe at how far the tech has come but time will tell.

the only reason electric vehicles exist as a consumer product is lithium batteries... which were invented in the 70's...

the governments can and do put a minimum average mpg on manufacturers, and that's all they need to do. picking a winner before theres competition is idiotic(and very typical of bureaucrats)

ice ban effectively bans hydrogen combustion/turbine... but i bet it doesn't ban steam driven...

Look unless you can jump to 2035 and tell me how wrong I was this is a pretty pointless discussion at this point. I've agreed the tech isn't there and our primary difference is I believe it will catch up and you assume it won't. Time will tell nothing left to be said. If ICE is still required for certain working conditions it's not like the EU or other governments are going to go 'tough shit guess we all starve', exceptions will be made.

But as I said, I think we'll be in awe of what 2035 electric vehicles are like compared to 2022 ones and it's well known that Lithium Ion isn't the solution forever which is why huge investments are being made in alternatives.

my point is with the exception of digital/virtual tech nothing improves that fast...

the electric car was first in circulation in the 1920's...

however hydrogen, bio diesel and ethanol are all refuelable with a much higher energy density than batteries. and that is unlikely to change.

still have high hopes for hydrogen fual cell..

And yet you don't understand the risks of driving an ICE car under extreme cold conditions. I'm not saying you don't have a job in this market, but this situation isn't exactly unheard of. Sometimes the drawing board and real-world experience don't match up.

It does improve that fast. In 2010 the Tesla Roadster got 240 miles of range and it's performance was 0-60 in 4s. In 20202 the Tesla Model S gets 400 miles of range and 0-60 in 2s Double or Nearly doubled in both metrics. I'm confident by 2035 there will be electric trucks with like 500+ miles of range and like 200-250 towing which will be comparable to ICE and if fast charging takes 20 minutes today it will probably take like 10 by then.

Regardless this is still pointless, I really don't want to argue about hypotheticals. Time will tell, if the tech doesn't catch up ICE will stick around to fill in the gaps until it does. If something better than Electric comes along we'll see a shift to that instead eventually. The world isn't going to end because ICE gets completely or mostly phased out.

The risks of driving a vehicle with a combustion engine vs an electric engine in extreme cold is significantly less. The propulsion systems in EV are more prone to failure where as with an ICE, as long as you give the car ample time to warm up, you're fine.

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No. But at some point you may have issues with purchasing gas. Once demand drops, most of gas stations will switch to electric only.

> If we go all EV, what happens in a deep freeze or hurricane type event when the power is out for several days?

The same as an ICE vehicle, once it runs out of fuel it ain't going anywhere. If the power is out for several days then the petrol station isn't going to have power to run the pumps to fuel your car. If the temperature is too low then fuel freezes, especially diesel.