I think this should be on everyone’s minds going forward in missouri

Cringe. There may be some issues with this law, but still cringeworthy is this share.

Homelessness far predates Capitalism - and what we have can barely be considered Capitalism. (Not that Capitalism is some kind of Utopia.) Alot of the problems societies face don't go actually go away, Capitalism or not.

This is the same kind of cringe where people label safety nets or Medicare for all as extreme socialism.

So the government stops the homeless from sleeping on government land and that is the fault of capitalism? I’d think unicorns and marmalade are equally at fault too. Good ‘ol Springfield logic.

The law does nothing but make it harder to get off the streets. Why are you going to punish people that are so far behind already because they are behind. There aren't just some issues with this law, The whole law is garbage so that some dumb ass makes way too much money off of our taxes can pat himself on the back.

Everybody wants to help the homeless but not in my backyard....

Edit:Moron edits his post then tryed to back track . He got banned not long ago seems like it's gonna happen again soon .

Not to downplay how shitty this is but I'm not understanding how capitalism is to blame when it's the government creating a law targeted at government owned property

i hate it. this is so maddening. i feel helpless. fuck missouri

But I'm not going to do anything aside from complain about it on reddit.

edit: Sorry guys. Even though I was agreeing with their comment, u/ArtisticTomatillo106 threw a tantrum and blocked me, and now reddit wont let me reply to anyone else in the comment chain.

Nice of you to assume that I'm not doing anything to help the homeless....

Except for that I help at food drives, I put a ton of extra food and a ton of different drop off food boxes, And I on multiplications of opened my home of people when they needed it to not freeze to death. Oh and when I was in cab driver there in Springfield I would give people free rides because they need it again where not to freeze to death again. Edit misspelling

I was linking to someone from the last daily thread on this topic.

Really reread your post?

Click the link, bud

Reread your comment. Comes off as sarcastic, dense mofo

But I'm not going to do anything aside from complain about it on reddit..

Maybe think before you comment

lol. That's because it was definitely sarcastic.

[removed]

lol, look at you go

So, if I go to a park for a picnic and fall asleep after I eat I could be arrested?

There's been studies that have shown a $50 fine was the difference between staying homeless and becoming wealthy for about 85% of homeless people. You act like the judge is going to hand out the max punishment for the first offense... lol.. gimme a break and quit being a drama queen.

The socialists need this argument. I wish they would all just move to a socialist country to experience how great it is.

Liberals need to argue like this... they lack arguments and this is the best they've got.

Aw pal... watch out. You just got name called because you don't agree with another person. Welcome to reddit

Capitalism capitalizes on people for capital.

Couple of little pp bootlickers here. Fuck capitalism and fuck you buddy.

Well ironically this isn't a great argument

Hey dip shit, do you like driving on those roads? Maybe enjoy most of our beautiful parks and nature preserves? How about them Bridges and Dams? Yep all those things were all of us putting our money together socially to make this country better some would say Great... Kinda like some weird Democratic socialism.

Did you know we had this thing where we built cheap and affordable housing for all for a long time but for some reason we stopped? Yeah it's because if we kept doing that boomers investments in their homes would basically be worth nothing. Good old capitalism kicking the can down the road so we can blame the next generation.

Fuck off with you calling me a drama queen, you jack ass . Next time your homeless and your forced to move from where you just trying to sleep so you can work a slave wage and maybe get a warm beed to sleep in with the threat of $450 fine or shit jail time . Fuck you eat shit .

I'm sure you're wife not having sex with you and your shitty marriage is a liberals fault too.

that’s my comment. why do you say im not gonna do anything aside from complain? i literally volunteer to help distribute food and supplies and i donate when i can. what else can i do? 🖕🏼

It's obvious that by "government" they're referring to the right wing ideology that enables unregulated capitalism and special interest groups instead of the average American citizens. Willful ignorance and straw man arguments are just wasting everyone's time. Let's try to have an honest conversation about these things for once.

Core idea of capitalism is competition, meaning winners and losers. Core idea of socialism is sharing. Jesus would be a socialist.

Think you are confusing socialism with communism. Canada is socialist.

Most of Europe too

I'm homeless and trans and I really do mean that. After I'm done with my responsibilities here I'm going to move far away.

This is literally what liberals have been saying for a long time. Like the past ten years has just been liberals saying literally “Jesus would have been socialist, republicans are hypocrites and their religious justifications don’t add up.

I feel like this cannot possibly be constitutional. But I don't know of any advocacy groups for the homeless willing to spend the money to fight this :/

I know I and other homeless can't.

I feel like there is a thing about being arrested for dumb laws? Discriminatory laws?

How about unreasonable fines? No homeless person has $750 for a fine to blow.

Or how about slave labor? If you can't pay the fine you have to enter into a work program with the state? No homeless person has that money. I'm pretty sure that's literally a few dollars less than what someone on minum wage makes in 2 weeks, so it's the threshold for working poor who won't be able to survive without that money. .

And this doesn't just happen once. People need to sleep every night/day.

The cost of a 1 bedroom not for a slum lord or ghetto is higher than most people. I know people who are living 8 people to a 2 bedroom apartment. That's no better than homeless.

There is no good option. They should get rid of this crap and put the money into affordable housing or something. The subsidized living spaces aren't paradise exactly either but they seem better than most other options. It's just going to cost the tax payers no matter what.

God it makes me so fuckin angry.

None of that should even matter. We should be focused on what this bill does and why it's bad.

Lol it’s certainly not just Springfield logic to connect the dots between a fascist capitalist government and the segregation of “less desirable” people. Republicans classically deregulate, which results in Monopolies. Here’s how it works…

Step 1. I rig the game so that it’s basically impossible for you to win. Let’s play monopoly except I start with the bank and Park Place and you get Baltimore Ave and $5.00 and abusive parents.

Step 2. You land on Park Place and can’t afford the rent so you sell Baltimore Ave to me. I now own all land and you have some cash. But eventually you loose it all for landing on Chance and being thrown in jail.

Step 3. You land on Park Place again and have 0$. At this point there is literally no where on the board that isn’t owned by me. Eventually we decide you have to forfeit, loose the game, or be thrown in jail.

Step 4. You start to realize how the game is rigged against you by your wealth status and that you never had a chance to win in the first place. You flip the table and move out to live on your own.

Step 5. You’re rounded up by police for camping on government land and thrown in real jail. Now you understand.

If you look homeless then yes.

Anyone in their right mind should have mixed feelings on this.

1. Springfield has WAY TOO MANY homeless people. And quite frankly, I would like to see a lot of them move on and go somewhere else. We simply don't have the infrastructure to handle the number of homeless people and it shows. Have you ever seen what some of these homeless camps look like once the homeless are done with them? Have you noticed the PILES of trash that get leftover on every single major intersection from the beggars? The fact is, the vast majority of them are drug-addled, polluting troublemakers that are not from here and do not belong here. If they get picked up on the side of the road by the cops and refuse treatment, they SHOULD be jailed and fined. Get them the hell out of our state.

2. homeless people are often homeless and in drugs due to mental illness and simply jailing them and fining them does nothing to help these people or the situation.

[deleted]

Post your sources. Only politicians and ad execs say "studies show."

Mhm capitalism and definitely not a lack of mental health help from a young age, education and loving parenting

How conservative of you to not give a fuck about people after they are out of the womb.

GOP Jesus despises the poor and downtrodden.

IIRC it’s after 15 days. That doesn’t make it much better bc who’s only homeless for 15 days? But it does protect people who are “functioning members of society”.

You could stop the flow of illegal aliens flooding the housing market. That would help

This is a fantastic comparison. Well done.

All of which stem directly from capitalism. Pricing people out of necessary services, keeping the population dumb and exploitable, and requiring people to work three jobs just to make ends meet are a direct result of a capitalist economic system.

Typical. "Instead of doing something to actually address the problem and help people, push them somewhere else so I don't have to look at them."

Go to California, walk through their cities, and then look at this with fresh eyes. Homeless camps everywhere, under people’s fences, not safe to walk in certain parts, even once rich neighborhoods have them. Places look like a dump. Sacramento, San Francisco, etc. it’s bad!

No it’s the result of a poorly run government which is a reflection of its best people

Americans run their own business so who’s pricing who out of what..? Capitalism doesn’t make the choices the people do. I already know this is gonna make you mad but whatever. It should. It’s a complex topic that can’t be blamed on the system itself. This requires people to take responsibility for their reality though so I don’t expect it to be popular.

I’ve met with some of the city council for a school project and those people don’t give a fuck about the homeless. All they care about is there businesses they run in the city. They get so proud of these little things they get done in the city that no one uses. Like the Route 66 park that you can drive through on college. I’ve seen one person drive through that thing. And it’s such a waste of space. Taking on something like homelessness is Springfield is too big of an issue for the people on the city council.

Why would your inability to think critically about the economic system that drives every aspect of life in this country make me mad? Capitalism is inherently set up to create haves and have-nots. It's the threat of falling into the latter category that keeps the wheels turning.

Edit: for an easy to understand analogy

Capitalism isn’t the problem, mental health and our educational system is the issue. Neither of which is solved by another economic system.. in fact any other current economic system would make these issues worse and lack of choice aka freedom.

No, you're right. Another economic system that guarantees your right to access things like mental health and healthcare services, with an emphasis on education spending, would absolutely make things worse.

Do you listen to yourself talk?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-13/what-causes-homelessness-start-with-capitalism

Here is one of many articles on the subject. The availability of information is so high that there is literally no excuse for not being aware of things like this. Unless you're saying that you struggle to grasp the idea conceptually? Capitalism literally can't work without the threat of homelessness. Hope this helps.

Or maybe you don't understand the connection between right wing political ideology and capitalism? That's also an easy Google search.

Liberal idea of helping the homeless is giving them a clean crack pipe and a fresh needle. Kicking them out of parks not only makes to parks more enjoyable but helps them stay safe when the weather can change from warm to bitter cold overnight. Enabling destructive behavior helps no one

It’s been an issue on public and private land. Worked somewhere where this was a huge issue people trespassing. I’d have liked to see maybe a campground opened for them. Kinda like some of these transitional communities for former addicts. No drugs or alcohol. But hopefully some resource for addiction.

I live on the Square and with the exception of a few houseless in the library, I haven’t seen the usual groups since January 1st. I thought this new law was for sleeping on state land, but what else is going on that they have completely disappeared?

Lmao do you? You truly sound uneducated when it comes to world economy and how they ACTUALLY work not an idealistic perspective of an American

Well. We can all go socialist and before long we can all look like the guy in the picture.

So the fact that America has been slipping in rankings for thinks like education, health, quality of life, and longevity for more than a decade now, while the countries in Europe with a more socialist bent, with economic policies that guarantee access to basic human necessities have been skyrocketing in every one of those measures means nothing to you?

Alot of NIMBYs all over across every region in the US regardless of their politics don't seem to actually want affordable housing if it's near them.

Even the Clinton's former Labor Secretary who is as left as they come and very concerned about income inequality- he should be - doesn't actually want affordable housing in his Berkeley neighborhood. (Its almost impossible to build anything residential in CA as it is as environmental impact laws are deliberately abused to delay projects indefinitely and make them cost prohibitive.)

Here in Springfield they NIMBYd down a resolution on the ballot to possible build more housing because of the park there being too important and possible traffic.

Then there's also the laws in place for zoning that deliberately prevent churches and other charitable organizations from helping house the homeless. This is the case regardless of whether it's a blue/red city or state. Why?

Who is putting these laws through? Also why are so many people who care about the homeless not want to actually live near them or better yet... take them in?

If you think capitalism causes homelessness, wait till you see what communism does.

Except safe use centers destigmatize drug use and actually lead more people to a path to sobriety. Additionally, the state doesn't own the parks in Springfield, so this law doesn't apply. Plus, you've basically just said "I don't care about the problem as long as I don't have to look at it." All kicking them out of their campground does is expose them to the elements and endangers them while they have to seek a new place to shelter.

Arresting people who don't have any other options does nothing but keep them trapped in yet another cycle.

I've been to California. All up and down the state. You're exaggerating the problem, and spouting talking points that have no basis in reality. Of course bigger cities in areas that stay semi-tropical year round will have more homeless. Are they much better in addressing the situation? No, but pointing at the mere existence of homeless people isn't the gotcha you think it is.

Y’all can dislike my comment as much as you like, I’m telling you the truth. I come from California. I moved from California to missouri because it’s become a heap of trash and crime. If you can’t handle the truth maybe y’all should move to Californiaproof here

I’m currently in California. We are in the process of moving to missouri. This is just outside my home, in a formerly very good neighborhood in Sacramento (called Fair Oaks) Homeless on Hazel Ave, Fair Oaks

Honestly I have a few controversial opinions on how to fix the homeless issue but the fine and jail time seems silly. How would they pay? Jail is just a free meal and bed and it will overcrowd the jails. Also some of the homeless want to be homeless, others have severe mental issues. Then you have the fake homeless begging for money. I don't think the city wants to do to actually fix the problem. So they try to treat and not cure the problem

Lol you see the same thing driving down Chestnut.

This is just outside my fence! This is where my house is. This is not a bunch of businesses. I had homeless high on drugs walk in my front yard. I hear them yelling outside. I called the police a few times. My kids can’t play outside. And this is not downtown Sacramento. That is much worse. Whole tent cities…and same for every off ramp on highways. You cannot compare missouri to California. The moment you drive out of California it’s like a different country.

PROOF HERE

I think you are confusing socialism with communism.

What causes poverty? Nothing. It's the original state, the default and starting point. The real question is, what causes prosperity.

Capitalism gets blamed for all kinds of things in error.

If you think there aren't poor people under systems other than capitalism then you're just uninformed.

In other systems everyone is poor so I mean pick your poison.

Nothing beats free markets.

Seems unreasonable to think you can eliminate the threat of homelessness. That's like saying you can eliminate the threat of failure. You can't remove competition from life. Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other system has it not? Capitalism might not be perfect, but if a utopia is what you're looking for then you'll forever be lost.

How do you equate homelessness with the threat of failure? People fail at all kinds of things all the time without becoming destitute. Eliminating the threat of homelessness is not only possible, it's necessary to a morally evolved society. It seems like you just never put any real thought into the issue and you're just blindly defending a system that not only doesn't serve you (unless you're rich), but enslaves you. Wake up man.

This is incorrect. There are many problems in the US that are falsely attributed to capitalism. Most of which really stem from abuse of our money. True capitalism (competition) drives prices down.

Constant inflating of the money supply, crony capitalism, the cantillion effect, and the perverse incentives that arise from our government having a monopoly on money are the real culprits. There are certainly real problems that people should be complaining about, but blaming them on capitalism is misguided.

Those are all features of capitalism, not bugs.

“The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying, This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not anyone have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows, “Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.” – Jean-Jacques Rousseau

By what mad reasoning have you determined that poverty is the default state of man? Money and debt are made up things. They literally aren't real! My god man, stop and think with your own mind for a moment!

We have a crisis across the nation. It's not like the city can do much without a statewide/national support effort.

We hide our heap of trash and crime in the woods, like proper folk.

As opposed to piling it on the street?

There's so many free places these people can get help. They choose to be homeless because the shelters won't let them do fucking heroin and meth, they aren't victims of capitalism. They're druggies who choose to live like this.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure capitalism has lifted millions - if not billions - out of poverty.

From each according to his ability. To each according to his needs. Jesus or Marx?

That doesn't negate that you are confusing the two.

Per true Marxism, Socialism is simply the step between a capitalist and communist society.

If I'm wrong than so is Marx and Engels.

Socialism is the means of production being seized by the people with the help of the state/authority. Then, with dissolution of the state, socialism turns into communism.

Communism is, essentially, the doing away with the concept of property in its entirety. Socialism is just how to get from step A to step C. To say socialism is "sharing" is simply wrong at worst and a gross oversimplification at best.

Shameless comment: I am so thankful I live under capitalism.

No system takes more people out of poverty than capitalism

I'm not doing that. I'm saying the threat of homelessness will always exist. That doesn't mean we can't have resources in place to assist people in avoiding it which i absolutely think we should. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

I don't understand why you think that concept is so axiomatic. If we evolve as a society and pool the resources that we already contribute to actually benefit the citizens and stop propping up corporate interests, no one would ever be homeless by choice. Much less would poverty be able to be used as a threat to force the working class into selling their labor for less than it's worth. I get the impression that you're not very well read on this subject and you've only ever known a single point of view. You should do some reading. It might expand your mind, and that's always a good thing.

Except none of the things I listed are exclusive to capitalism.

Get that karma!

I don't love your assumptions about me but the advice is certainly good. I never said the resources we contribute should prop up corporate interests, if i implied that I didn't mean to.

No disrespect intended.

The moral arc of the universe is bending away from Missouri.

Maybe capitalism is being confused with greed?

[removed]

[removed]

Unpopular opinion: I work with homeless veterans and I’m telling you most homeless people prefer that lifestyle. If you can catch them on day one they turn their lives around. The guys you see with a sign are either faking, or choose not change despite having plenty of resources. If you really want to help focus on homeless prevention.

Yeah, it would be much better to concentrate all of the homeless people to a camp where they’ll have jobs and a place to live.

Watch out, they'll down vote you for saying that. The truth hurts.

Redditors here hate the truth,you'll be down voted shortly

Expect to see lots of ad hoc reviews for the underpasses etc. for $750 per light I was disappointed- no facilities, hassled by the cops. Would not recommend. 1 *

People travel to Springfield when they become homeless because they are treated well here.

15 days in jail, that’s a free hotel.

Everyone who is forced to leave is given a voucher for a shelter. Its inhumane not to kick them out a let them freeze to death

Street interviews with homeless in Portland they tell you straight up "there's so many homeless because the city makes it so easy to get high and be comfortable staying homeless"

What shelter do you suggest they go to? Everywhere is full. Emergency shelters don't open unless it's below 32. They had camps set up to keep themselves warm. Yes, it's possible to keep warm in a camp.

The only thing the police did was force people out into to the elements to try and scramble for another place to seek shelter.

What law is this?

I am not confused and here is why: You are talking about socialism and communism (I have read the manifesto) as if the way that Engel and Marx envisioned it in a philosophical treatise is the way that it became manifest IRL. It isn't. Apologizing in advance for the lecture, but one begets the other.

Here, in this discussion of homelessness, when someone says that capitalism plays a roll, some attempt to rebut using ad hominem arguments: "If you don't like capitalism, you should go live in a socialist country and see how much you like it." I think its fair to say that what they are referring to is totalitarian states, think China. They conflate socialism as it exists in the real world with communism as it exists the real world, not in someone's idealized utopia (I mean, they entitled it a manifesto).

Social democracies in western Europe (and Canada and Japan) have embraced market economies in order to grow wealth, but then use socialist policies to distribute that wealth, through free health care, university education, child-care subsidies, pensions, etc. They are considered to be socialists due to these policies. Do they try to make a case for abolishing property? No. Are they opposed to using capitalism to create wealth? Again, no. I don't think anyone would say that the UK is communist with a straight face, or that the democratically elected government is at risk (if it is, it is not the kind of revolution that would be intended to result in a socialist state, but rather a fascist state with an autocratic ruler, just like the dream that exists here).

I'm not making a value judgement, just saying that conflating socialism with communism as we have come to know then in the real world is not a valid argument.

That said, there have been quite a few studies of homelessness and the causes are well known. Despite our government's faith in the ability of capitalism to solve our social problems, it has only exacerbated this problem (you can do your own research). To be more precise, capitalism did not cause homeless as others have pointed out. It may have made the problem worse, and it offers no solutions. These things can all be true at the same time.

I realize it is an oversimplification, but if one were to engage in the exercise of distilling the competing manifestos into single words, I challenge you to come up with more accurate words than competition and sharing, the fundamental mechanisms are work--again, capitalism appears best at creating wealth, so no value judgement from me.

Just like the causes of homelessness are well known, so are many of the remedies. Although not a Christian myself, I believe that if you embrace the dogma, you should do it completely and without hypocrisy. Jesus expelled the money changers from the temple. It is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven. Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me. Etc, etc. IMHO Jesus was just a dude, but a good one. Yes, if Jesus were around today, he would not be a capitalist; he would be a socialist, and one of color, and likely despised for advocating for the homeless. (I am aware that there are other new testament admonitions about rejecting welfare, etc. and in favor of personal responsibility, so please don't say that I am confused, I get it).

We have a long tradition in this country of embracing Christian ideals in talk, but then rejecting them in practice (read Robert Jones' book-himself a theologian-White Too Long). All I'm sayin' is that if people walked the walk, homelessness would still exist, but would be much less of a problem. All we need is the will.

Who downvotes this? I mean, really? It's such a simple statement.

As opposed to communism, which EMBRACES homelessness for all citizens.

I used to go to the Sequiota Park or Nature Center parking lots to eat lunch and would often take a 10 minute nap. Didn’t realize I’d be subject to a violation if I did that now.

I don't care about people that chose to live a homeless lifestyle and do not wish to change. I guess you need to regulate how they love too? You can't help those who.do not want to change

Wait wait hold on a minute isnt the only land that belongs to the State just their facilities and roadways? I thought streets and city land was technically owned by the "people" and was this new law put to vote and when?