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iclimbnaked t1_ix9xrpj wrote

Reply to comment by tantawyk in FIFA bans 'One Love' armbands at World Cup by ambianceambiance

Pretty simple. Anything that suppresses/vilifies innate traits of people (assuming it doesn’t infringe on others). IE racism is never okay or worthy of respect even if it’s baked into a culture. Same with sexual orientation.

If you’re born that way, no one gets to hide behind “cultural norms” for being against it.

Doesn’t deserve respect.

Especially when you openly invite the world to your country for a global event where you absolutely knew this would be an issue. Don’t bid for a global event if you can’t handle the criticism for it

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[deleted] t1_ixa0hrn wrote

[removed]

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iclimbnaked t1_ixa15ex wrote

Where in my statement did I say it was genetic.

I said innate.

Gay people don’t choose to be gay. Whether that is some genetic combo or something about the environment or not is irrelevant.

But way to immediately misuse the study though. It looked at if any single gene or handful of genes causes it. Just bc it’s not that simple doesn’t make it not genetic. Like literally the article you link says genetics plays a part.

Edit: I get I say born that way. Meant that as more of a sexual orientation isn’t something you choose. It’s just who you are. Not that it’s literally down to a gay gene.

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tantawyk t1_ixa33in wrote

If it’s not purely genetic, then you’re not born this way. It’s absolutely different than being born to a specific race. If your country allows gay relationships, good for you. If some other country for whatever reason doesn’t allow it, you shouldn’t go there and protest it.

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iclimbnaked t1_ixa5sji wrote

In no way does it not being purely genetic not mean it’s not innate. If it’s not a choice you make you shouldn’t be discriminated for it. It’s dead simple.

Regardless the study you link doesn’t rule it out as genetic in the first place. It rules it out as a simple handful of genes. Could be it’s a pretty complex interaction of them.

I’d agree with your premise of don’t show up to a country and protest things if Qatar themselves didn’t invite the world. At that point it’s totally fair to call them out for their BS.

You don’t choose to be black, you don’t choose to be gay. No cultural norms of repressing either deserves respect.

Hell I don’t think say jailing of Muslims even if it was a “cultural norm” should be respected and that’s something that is a choice. You choose your religion.

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tantawyk t1_ixa9ura wrote

I didn’t say it’s not complex, I’m just saying that you’re not born with it. And in countries like Qatar, you’re not raised into it. Each person/entity defines their borders, what are your borders? Would you be fine with incest? I don’t have to agree with everything you do to respect you as a human being. If I invite you to my home, I don’t have to allow everything you do to be done inside my home. If we don’t have the same way of thinking, that doesn’t mean we have to be enemies.

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iclimbnaked t1_ixaap8w wrote

There’s a difference between okay with and actively jailing people for it.

I’m not okay with incest but if two adults choose to do that. Then whatever. I can think it’s disgusting but they absolutely shouldn’t be jailed for it. (Things do get fuzzy here given it can result in harmful genetic abnormalities to a potential child)

I can be friendly with someone who thinks being gay is wrong. I’m never going to be friendly with someone who thinks people should be jailed for things they can’t change about themselves. Ie think being gay is wrong all you want. Jailing and discriminating for it is the line.

Not going to police anyone’s thoughts even if I disagree. It’s when you take the action of discrimination that it changes.

It’s not deserving of respect anymore than racism or religious discrimination is.

Also you can not be enemies but still think it’s totally valid to call out your friends when they’re being shitty people.

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tantawyk t1_ixaeaet wrote

That’s how countries show that they’re not okay with something. Punishment. I can list you a number of things that Muslims are not allowed to do in Europe and US, and they get punished/expelled if they do it. Why is this in any way different than what Qatar is doing? Each person has their boundaries, and each country has it’s rules. This is life as we know it.

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iclimbnaked t1_ixaf5dc wrote

Each country is allowed their rules.

That doesn’t mean said rules deserve respect. Never going to respect active discrimination

That’s also life as we know it. Respect is earned. Not defaulted to.

Plenty of countries have done all kinds of evil things. They don’t deserve respect for them just bc they’re a country.

The world has the freedom to judge Qatar for its actions. No ones owed respect by default hiding behind “culture”. Remember, Qatar invited this spotlight on themselves, if they didn’t want criticism than don’t invite the world to your country.

I’d also argue whatever things Muslims are punished for doing in Europe/USA also shouldn’t be respected. (Assuming it doesn’t harm anyone)Pretty simple

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Julch t1_ixc24mj wrote

A number of things ?

List ONE that isn't inherently illegal to begin with.

Modern countries will let you practice your faith freely, while also letting you be whoever you are.

Sure you won't be able to legally marry several women in my country but you can still totally legally be in a relationship with as many people as you want. Also lets be honest, how often is polygamy actually an equal partnership ? Most countries that still allow polygamy are severely patriarchic and only allow men to have several wives but certainly not vice versa while also stripping women of most if not all their rights (freedom, education, jobs, voting, driving, etc.)

I fully support not allowing such a barbaric form of quasi slavery.

[EDIT] Btw lets not put Europe or any modern country in one pot with the US since most states are literally third world countries by every measure used to define said status. The US has long ceased to be a beacon of freedom and is barely functioning at this point.

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tantawyk t1_ixc388y wrote

You think you know everything don’t you? I don’t feel like this is going anywhere, I’ll just save my time and go watch the world cup

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Julch t1_ixdbvec wrote

Aka my non argument (and closet bigotry) isn't leading anywhere and I'll walk away before I dig myself an even deeper hole?

If you actually want to see how much crazy shit Qatar has done / is still doing, go watch John Oliver's segment on the World Cup..

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