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a_canadian_abroad t1_jbolwa1 wrote

Reply to comment by JeffFromSchool in Former Canadian Olympians call to block Russians from Games. by PrincessBananas85

I’m not opposed to many of The United States’ interventions abroad but your statement is not nuanced at all. Many countries opposed the invasion of Iraq, the Vietnam War and the numerous coups and proxy wars in Latin America (El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile, etc.)

American foreign policy has a checkered past and any attempt to characterize it as all good or all bad is a gross oversimplification. As is saying there was universal support for any one of their military actions since 1945.

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JeffFromSchool t1_jbomiat wrote

Many countries did, but many countries didn't.

While we haven't always had everyone's backing, we've always had someone's backing. The US's foreign policy history is certainly checkered, but every single country can find themselves somewhere in one of the black squares, too. Some, many more than one square. That's my point.

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a_canadian_abroad t1_jbomli8 wrote

Agreed.

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JeffFromSchool t1_jbomsds wrote

And while we're here pointing fingers, Canada is on quite a few of those black squares, and has greatly benefited from the ones that it isn't on.

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a_canadian_abroad t1_jboonei wrote

Canada has had a few dark spots in its history. Of particular note is our history with the First Nations, as every country in the Americas treated indigenous people very poorly indeed.

Canada has certainly benefited from friendly relations with The United States and it’s my hope that both our countries continue to benefit from that relationship.

By and large, however, Canada has not been a terribly aggressive actor on the international stage. Certainly not compared to The United States’ history of overthrowing democracies that don’t toe their line or having inconvenient leaders killed. Or even the Canadian mistreatment of First Nations, as bad as it was, can not compare to the barbarity of the trail of tears and the American “Indian” Wars.

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a_canadian_abroad t1_jboovhj wrote

I don’t think the “who has the least guilt for international atrocity” fight is a fight an American is going to win against a Canadian.

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JeffFromSchool t1_jbopopy wrote

That's not the game we're playing. The game we're playing is "don't be a hypocrite". Canada is complicate in more of the US's foreign policy blunders than a lot of other countries.

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JeffFromSchool t1_jbor6zy wrote

Dude, by the time Canada came around, the United States had already had it's Civil War, abolished slavery and had expanded out to California. You weren't even around to get involved in any of that.

You were settled by western Europeans, too. You'd have been right by our side if you didn't show up to the party so late. What Canada did to the First Nations was all it could do at that point in history. Given the chance, no doubt it would have been worse.

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a_canadian_abroad t1_jbovvaa wrote

Canada and the us were settled at the same time. Jamestown and Quebec City were the first two permanent European settlements in North America. And settled within months of each other. The history of Europeans in Canada didn’t begin in 1867 just like the history of Europeans in the united states doesn’t begin in 1776.

Before the 20th century the United States was almost completely isolationist. This discussion was about international conflicts. Since the Spanish American war the United States has become involved with a large number of foreign conflicts, some have benefited the world, the Second World War, the Korean War, (both of which Canada also fought in). More recently, the Bosnian conflict, the Grenadian conflict, Rwanda and other have all been defensible if not outright boons to freedom, democracy and good government.

There have been others, named above in previous comments where the unites states has pursued self interest to the detriment of human rights, democracy, and common decency. Can you name a single conflict in which Canada has done the same?

To your last point, if only countries without any marks on their records can comment on the records of others, by what right do you judge Russian foreign policy?

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JeffFromSchool t1_jbp19eq wrote

>Canada and the us were settled at the same time. Jamestown and Quebec City were the first two permanent European settlements in North America. And settled within months of each other. The history of Europeans in Canada didn’t begin in 1867 just like the history of Europeans in the united states doesn’t begin in 1776.

Right, but everything until 1867 is generally shrugged off as "done by the French/British settlers, not us". Hell, that might as well have been the Canadian governments official slogan until the 21st century.

>There have been others, named above in previous comments where the unites states has pursued self interest to the detriment of human rights, democracy, and common decency. Can you name a single conflict in which Canada has done the same?

Yes. To use your examples above, Vietnam (through logistical support) and Afghanistan. After all, Canadian snipers didn't get a reputation as among the world's best in the modern age by staying in Canada and shooting paper targets.

Also, I'm very curious to hear why you have such a high opinion of the Korean War and not the Vietnam war, considering the many parallels between them.

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a_canadian_abroad t1_jbp237a wrote

The Korean War was undertaken by the United Nations. There WAS an international consensus there.

That may be your perspective on the Canadian attitude to its history but I’m here to tell you that my teachers as a kid couldn’t shut up about Cartier, Champlain and Cabot. They would go on and on about McKenzie and Hudson and the Hudson’s bay company. To their credit, I learned from fairly early on about smallpox blankets and residential schools.

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JeffFromSchool t1_jbp2xd2 wrote

The only reason the Korean War was undertaken by the UN and not Vietnam is because during Korea, the USSR was boycotting the UN for recognizing Taiwan as the true China immediately after the communist government took over and didn't have veto power in the Security Council. They were an active member of the security council during Vietnam and would have vetoed any resolution that didn't support the Viet Minh.

If that's literally your only reason, I think you might want to look back and re-examine that "international consensus"

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