imagicnation-station t1_jd1byqx wrote on March 21, 2023 at 2:45 AM

I see what you're saying, and it does make sense.

However, think of the great achievements made during the Greek, Roman, Egyptian empires, as well as the Chinese Dynasties, etc. And now add to that, people like Galileo, Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon, who added so much to science without an industrial revolution.

Beings with more intelligence would arrive at those mathematical principles that Newton arrived much faster perhaps? I am sure there might be other life forms out there much smarter than us, and that alone perhaps could make an industrial revolution irrelevant for their space exploration.

jilljackmuse OP t1_jd2c25m wrote on March 21, 2023 at 10:06 AM

Except once again, we had Neanderthals and Homo Erectus who were close to or as intelligent as us, and we have no evidence of them being technologically advanced or contributing to science.

imagicnation-station t1_jd39e29 wrote on March 21, 2023 at 3:03 PM

I don't see how this is relevant. You were talking about the "industrial revolution" specifically being a factor for other alien species to have similar or more advanced tech than us.

The idea is that other alien species would reach our level of intelligence or greater. And regardless of an industrial revolution, technology would come about because of intellectual achievements similar to the ones I mentioned here on Earth (Isaac Newton, Galileo, etc).

Or, based on your neanderthal/homo erectus comment, is your question that other alien species can't and won't reach our level of intelligence (or greater) at all?

jilljackmuse OP t1_jd4tjku wrote on March 21, 2023 at 8:59 PM

No, it's whether they even want to.

imagicnation-station t1_jd4vfdv wrote on March 21, 2023 at 9:11 PM

That's still a poor comparison.

I hope you understand that us (modern humans), neanderthals and homo erectus, during the cavemen era, none contributed to science. Not because they didn't want to, but because they didn't have enough time.

It took modern humans from cavemen times to 1700 C.E., for someone to come up with calculus. Neanderthals and Homo Erectus didn't have that time, not to mention, Homo Erectus was much less intelligent than us.

jilljackmuse OP t1_jd5s12t wrote on March 22, 2023 at 12:56 AM

Neanderthals have existed longer than Homo Sapiens have. You're assuming that the path we took is a normal and expected path. Why?

The way I see it, the path we took was very unlikely and most humans during the "cavemen era" did not agree to it considering we find evidence of "civilised" humans replacing and subsuming most hunter-gatherer human groups throughout the past 10k years, like how Middle-Eastern Neolithic farmers migrated to Europe and almost entirely replaced Western European Hunter-Gatherers and turned them into second-class citizens in the societies they created. Due to this, most biggest ancestral influence of Europeans comes from these Middle-Eastern farmers and not the indigenous Western European Hunter-Gatherers. These farmers were so influential, they're responsible for giving Europeans very pale skin (in comparison to the dark-skinned WEHG) and advanced (for its time) agriculture. And it wasn't just in Europe they did this, they also went into North-East Africa and Ethiopians/Somalis/Eritreans are about 40-60% Western Eurasian in genetic heritage.

If humans were more solitary like Neanderthals, then perhaps our agricultural and "civilised" ancestors would have stayed in small groups which would prevent civilisation that would could allow calculus to be discovered/invented (depending on your perspective of mathematics). But they didn't, they were known for having large tribes, large-scale migrations, trade routes that went across seas, tribal alliances to take over other human groups and then eventually agriculture and civilisation. I don't see this as part of what makes us intelligent because Neanderthals may have been as intelligent as us and yet they stayed in small groups and everything they made came from the local environment.

Also, Homo Erectus may not have been exactly as intelligent as we are, but they were still quite intelligent and they've existed far, far longer than we have with similar bodies that could allow tool-making and potentially language. They could still have come up with agriculture and civilisation and metal-working, but they didn't. Did they really not have enough time, or did they just not want to?

imagicnation-station t1_jd850qa wrote on March 22, 2023 at 3:00 PM

I am not assuming anything, but you're still proving my point.

The original point was that alien life with intelligence would need something like the "industrial revolution", but now you're talking about Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers who migrated to Europe.

The point regarding Neolithic farmers, that is just based on intelligence, and understanding to work as a society. This can easily be achieved by other intelligent alien life.

Another thing that you keep assuming is that, people without better clothing, getting sick from curable illnesses, without simple technology that could make their lives easier, didn't create better clothing, medicine, simple technology because they didn't want to, as opposed to just not being able to (due to not having enough time).

Why didn't Zorg come up with Algebra? Because he didn't want to, or is it because he was too busy hunting and taking care of/protecting his family?

Also, you have to realize, that those who contribute to knowledge, are very few, especially in the beginning. There was 1 Isaac Newton out of millions at that time. There was 1 Galileo out of millions at that time. It would require 1 out of millions and perhaps more for Neanderthals since they weren't living in civilizations.

So, now that we have calculus, because 1 person came up with it, and now is being taught in colleges/universities all throughout the world... would you say that before Newton came up with calculus, let's say the ancient Greek or Egyptian civilizations, would you say that the ancient Egyptians, who used lots of math, just didn't "want" to come up with calculus? Or would you say that humans didn't have enough time yet for that 1 person to come up with calculus?

So, this is why when you say, "Neanderthals didn't want to do X", it doesn't make sense, when the reality was that they just didn't have enough time like Egyptians and calculus.