Submitted by darthatheos t3_10ve1np in space
GlockAF t1_j7h1oob wrote
Post below asks “why nuclear all of a sudden? Partly because the technically well-informed have finally (inevitably )!come to the correct conclusion that there is no route to a decarbonized economy without nuclear power. Renewables are great, renewables are the future, but nuclear power absolutely is going to be part of the solution.
As far as their connection to space travel, nothing else can match the energy density of nuclear power. There’s just no getting around it, if we limit ourselves to chemical fuel the rest of the solar system is essentially off-limits to anything biological
certain_people t1_j7h8mtw wrote
[deleted] t1_j7hy5tp wrote
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[deleted] t1_j7ibe4x wrote
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[deleted] t1_j7hdf0z wrote
Left solar and wind off the chart
certain_people t1_j7hdwzq wrote
Not left off so much as can't be shown. What's the energy density of wind?
[deleted] t1_j7hg3vn wrote
They measured it in joules/kg. Solar is infinite. Wind I'm not so sure.
certain_people t1_j7hgogl wrote
It's just not the right way to compare nuclear with solar and wind. And you can't put wind or sunlight in a fuel tank.
[deleted] t1_j7hh9tb wrote
Seems reasonable to me? Light is zero kg, so infinite energy per kg. I can't put uranium in my fuel tank either. Just not practical for the everyday person.
moral_luck t1_j7hxh0p wrote
Nuclear reactors use light as the energy for power.
Coal generators use light as the energy for power.
Natural gas generators use light as the energy for power.
Geothermal generators use light as the energy for power.
Light is the way energy is transferred from one atom or molecule to another atom or molecule.
Heat is light.
For example:
Coal is burned, the chemical reaction creates lots of photons. Those photons get absorbed by water molecules. The water molecules become excited. Excited water molecules move faster. Faster moving water molecules have more kinetic energy. Steam is the result. High velocity steam spins a turbine. The turbine spins a magnetic field inside an coil. This produces electricity.
Energy density is really a measure of the number and energy of the photons generated by a certain fuel. Light is not the fuel (hint: fusion).
[deleted] t1_j7i6i75 wrote
Fusion is what happens on the sun
Not what we do on earth
moral_luck t1_j7i7s57 wrote
Yes, exactly. Solar energy is fusion.
moral_luck t1_j7ia3xp wrote
Depends on the car.
moral_luck t1_j7hwh78 wrote
Solar power is neither infinite in energy density, total amount of energy or duration of energy.
Not sure what you mean by "Solar is infinite."
[deleted] t1_j7hwnqn wrote
How many megajoules per kg is it?
moral_luck t1_j7i2c65 wrote
Einstein's most famous equation (E=mc^(2)) limits energy density of any fuel to 9 x 10^(10) MJ/kg
And that would be an antimatter reactor. Physics means no fuel can have infinite density.
[deleted] t1_j7i5cy1 wrote
Light. Zero mass. Lots of energy.
moral_luck t1_j7i7wee wrote
Where did the light come from?
SowingSalt t1_j7jjchk wrote
Therefore in the ratio mJ/kg, light is undefined and cannot be on the chart; which was the original point.
moral_luck t1_j7hz7ym wrote
Solar energy is hydrogen fusion, deuterium–tritium fusion is about 338,000,000 MJ/kg.
But we don't have the technology to create miniature suns in our rockets.
BTW, U-235 fission has an energy density of about 144,000,000 MJ/kg.
Another source puts the energy density of the sun's core around 6.43 x 10^(8) MJ/kg, or 643,000,000 MJ/kg.
The second source is titled The Source of Solar Energy.
[deleted] t1_j7i5md1 wrote
That's fusion reactors not solar energy on the surface of the earth
moral_luck t1_j7i7uhl wrote
Where does the solar energy on the surface of the earth come from?
Taxus_Calyx t1_j7hxzqa wrote
"Wind powered travel to Mars." M'kay.
John-the-cool-guy t1_j7i9xfp wrote
What about solar winds? And a sail to catch them? Feels like I've heard about this someplace.
TheGacAttack t1_j7ku5zo wrote
Some of us have got this idea..... we want to land a craft. Deploy solar sails. It'll have a great, big canopy! Solar winds will be caught by the mylar sails....
C'MON, GUYS!
[deleted] t1_j7i6mr4 wrote
That's not the sick burn you think it is
moral_luck t1_j7icz4b wrote
It was 3rd degree.
I get the feeling you'd rather "win" an "argument" than be correct. Your whole premise is born of ignorance, but it's easier for some to remain ignorant than to recognize they are wrong.
Heat has infinite energy density, so we should just burn coal for rockets. <- your logic at work.
[deleted] t1_j7i9miz wrote
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[deleted] t1_j7hhzly wrote
Solar and wind aren't "fuel".
SexyOldHobo t1_j7hnhem wrote
I personally have my suspicions that the anti-nuclear “movement” is ultimately funded by fossil fuel interests gaslighting as environmentalists
blank_user_name_here t1_j7hwdji wrote
Uhhh, that is exactly what happened.
urmomaisjabbathehutt t1_j7il3dj wrote
im pretty sure that fossil fuel like to use propaganda greenwash themselves
and also have my suspicion that they may want use pro nuclear propaganda an industry they have been coexisting and competing with for the last seven decades in order to delay the energy transition because they cannot compete and control the disruptive changes that renewables caused in the market
i also have the suspicion that they may be using pro nuclear propaganda to blame any renewable supporter as pro fossil fuel 😌
i also am aware that a pro nuclear bot was found doing his rounds at reddit and also that there are plenty of pronuclear comments dressed as facts not being so also i realized that often pro nuclear energy coments apprear in threads that are not discusing such
Incidently this thread was about nuclear PROPULSION yet here are the church of the fissiontology in force proselitizing
i rather back read about nuclear propulsion which is something i find interesting
VitaminPb t1_j7hc25b wrote
German Greens would disagree (wrongly and stupidly) with you.
Excellent-Pattern119 t1_j7idyps wrote
Sudden? Nerva project is 60 years old.
GlockAF t1_j7jvzap wrote
Oldie but a goodie?
[deleted] t1_j7h761z wrote
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HerburtThePervert t1_j7haa6d wrote
I have a feeling that fusion power will radically change humanity’s way of life sometime this century. All the benefits of nuclear, without the waste and lower risk. Hopefully even something more radical will come along.
standarduser2 t1_j7j21e3 wrote
Nuclear for space travel is probably the best option we currently have.
For land based power, that is absolutely not true.
GlockAF t1_j7jxqpr wrote
The US used ~4000 terawatt hours in 2021, about 900 of that (~20%) renewable.
Barring the discovery and miraculously quick deployment of a resource-effective & cheap energy storage technology, we are still gonna need a quick spooling backup of some sort.
Unless you have a plan to cut energy use by 80%
Leather-Mundane t1_j7hxx75 wrote
Renewable sources can likely support about 40 percent of future energy demands.
urmomaisjabbathehutt t1_j7ha0w3 wrote
I don't see a reason to think that there is no rute to decarbonizing without nuclear power, i don't see any reason to think that as the "inevitable " or "correct" conclusion
I see many reasons why nuclear in space can be useful and desirable at least till we have fusion which we don't have
i don't see the need to proselitize the use of nuclear fission as energy on the ground in an thread about the use of nuclear propulsion in space
toothpastetitties t1_j7huhzs wrote
Because there is no way to decarbonise without nuclear energy doing the “heavy lifting”- keep in mind this is only for energy purposes. This does nothing for the other uses of hydrocarbons.
Renewables are not a viable solution to providing consistent clean energy- as abundant as wind, flowing water, and photons are, the machinery used to convert to electricity don’t produce enough, long enough, or consistently enough. Nuclear energy provides energy at any time of day, any load, any external environmental factor. Doesn’t give a shit. And with people mass buying electric cars, on top of consuming electricity as normal, our infrastructure is in for one hell of a ride.
I don’t get why this is such a hard concept for the Reddit hive mind to understand. You can’t power a country exclusively on solar panels and windmills. We need nuclear energy. It’s a no brainer. The longer we argue the longer the transition is delayed.
Ukulele_Maestro t1_j7hc7pp wrote
reddit hivemind has a nuclear power boner
simcoder t1_j7hd243 wrote
Nuclear is not a silver bullet either monetarily or carbon wise. It's an option. But one with a number of VERY significant downsides and quite dependent on govt indemnification/socialism.
Orion2033 t1_j7hgfrt wrote
I don’t see socialism as an issue since Lockheed, NASA, ESA, and JPL are the main stars. Rolls Royce is a contractor. Well so are Boeing and Lockheed for thatvmatter
simcoder t1_j7hgxf9 wrote
It's just that privatizing profits and socializing the costs kind of thing that's somewhat intrinsic to the nuclear equation.
Orion2033 t1_j7hi2jg wrote
I think it more of an old boys club like Standard Oil before the govt broke the monopoly
simcoder t1_j7hielo wrote
Nuclear power is indemnified by the govt beyond a certain amount. Without that indemnity, it wouldn't be economically viable.
CarlJH t1_j7igsko wrote
So is the interstate highway system, which kills a lot more people than nuclear reactors ever have.
Orion2033 t1_j7hilnc wrote
Yes but many countries can now supply it or is that a dumb thing to say?
simcoder t1_j7hj23g wrote
I guess the point is that it's a form of socialism for the nuclear energy industry.
moral_luck t1_j7jd60o wrote
>privatizing profits and socializing the costs
How is this different than oil or coal? Or heavy industry?
Pollution is socialized cost with privatized profits. Mining coal destroys environments. Burning coal causes asthma.
Seems nuclear would reduce socialized costs.
simcoder t1_j7jgig7 wrote
I would have thought that would have been obvious to a nuclear expert.
moral_luck t1_j7jhxxf wrote
Not sure what you mean, but I think that falls into the field of economics. Or public health.
simcoder t1_j7ji15r wrote
Do you understand how the indemnities work?
moral_luck t1_j7jijcp wrote
Are you implying that I am the economist/lawyer/nuclear physicist or you are?
moral_luck t1_j7jib08 wrote
>indemnities
That sounds like law. Not sure what you're getting at with the nuclear expert comment.
Or where you're going with this in general. But do you think kids growing up around coal generators that get asthma get a big pay out from the companies? IF they did I don't think coal plants would exist.
simcoder t1_j7jijee wrote
Well it's kind of critical to the original argument. Not sure we can go any further if you don't understand them.
moral_luck t1_j7jiu8t wrote
So you are a lawyer, nuclear physicist, public health expert, and economist.
simcoder t1_j7jj0s9 wrote
Ok then.
Well it's kind of important to understand how the indemnities work to get the original point of privatizing profit and socializing costs.
I agree that sort of thing happens a lot. I guess with nuclear it's just a matter of the scales involved.
moral_luck t1_j7jjcv0 wrote
>I guess with nuclear it's just a matter of the scales involved.
Exactly my point. Coal is much worse for people than nuclear, even when accounting for MWh/year life lost. So many more people are affected by coal than nuclear.
It's like comparing car accidents to air accidents. Car accidents cause more deaths in total and per mile traveled, but people freak out about air accidents because there are more deaths per accident.
Or where you trying to imply that mining and heavy industry actually pay out all the indemnities they should, but nuclear plants don't? Politics kind of makes that improbable.
Still don't understand the "nuclear expert" comment. Are you referring to yourself as the "nuclear expert" or to me?
simcoder t1_j7jjg2e wrote
You should really look up how the indemnities work to have a fuller understanding of what you're advocating. It's worth your time.
moral_luck t1_j7jjmii wrote
So you're a lawyer?
I'm very confused about your point. If you are a lawyer I'd think you'd be better about making your point.
simcoder t1_j7jjo3r wrote
It should be crystal clear by this point I would have thought?
moral_luck t1_j7jjslu wrote
Your point? Crystal clear? If mud is crystal.
You've done little to further your point. Or to counter my claims that fossil fuels have more social costs than nuclear.
simcoder t1_j7jjwpw wrote
It's just that you're probably going to struggle understanding the "privatizing profits and socializing costs" angle if you don't know what indemnities are and how they function in the nuclear power equation.
moral_luck t1_j7jkbag wrote
Oh. So you've taken steps to make your point clearer? Crystal clear? Like hematite?
Or you've countered my claims that coal plants cause asthma, but haven't been held responsible for them?
If you're a lawyer, you're not very good at supporting your point.
simcoder t1_j7jkf9p wrote
I'm just saying that if you want to understand what I meant by privatizing profits and socializing costs you have to understand what indemnities are and how they work in the nuclear power industry
moral_luck t1_j7jkowd wrote
If you really wanted me to understand your POV on indemnities and socializing costs and privatizing profits were, you'd have done so by now.
But you haven't. Because you know I'm right.
simcoder t1_j7jku28 wrote
You don't seem to be very trusting of my opinion. And that's perfectly fine.
That's why I suggested you do your own research so you're not having to depend on my own personal take on the subject.
moral_luck t1_j7jl00c wrote
You haven't had an opinion in the last 5 responses.
Socialized costs is much greater than indemnities.
simcoder t1_j7jl3kg wrote
That's because you refuse to educate yourself on the subject so we can begin an actual debate on the subject of indemnities and how they affect the cost structure of nuclear power.
moral_luck t1_j7jld3q wrote
Yes, the person who has posted references is the person who refuses to do research or educate themselves.
simcoder t1_j7jlhlt wrote
Well. I gotta say. After all this, it still sounds like you don't understand what they are. And it's really not hard at all to find out what they are and how they work.
moral_luck t1_j7jlv3d wrote
You do realize that CO2 emission is a socialized cost, right? Socialized costs are bigger than what's in a contract.
I'm beginning to think you have no idea what indemnities are. You keep typing the word, but haven't given any evidence you know how they work.
simcoder t1_j7jm003 wrote
OK then. Well it was good chatting with you. Definitely check those things out if you want to consider yourself an informed nuclear advocate.
moral_luck t1_j7jmh8v wrote
Are you the nuclear expert you were talking about earlier?
simcoder t1_j7jmnlh wrote
Expert is kind of a relative term. I do know how the indemnities work in the nuclear industry.
moral_luck t1_j7jnkkq wrote
So if you have specific knowledge of an industry insider, why would you assume that everyone would have access to that same knowledge?
Does that also give you knowledge of indemnities in the coal industry? How about plastic? Are you aware of the concept of externalized cost (basically interchangeable with socialized costs)?
Externalized costs exist in all forms of industry. Even groceries. Are you suggesting that only those things specifically mentioned in an indemnity is the entire social cost of a thing? And nuclear is the worst alternative, in terms of externalized costs, per MWh among electrical generation methods?
simcoder t1_j7jnn5r wrote
I'm not an industry insider. Google and wiki are just about all you need to get the high level gist.
moral_luck t1_j7jnp1j wrote
Ah, I got ya. That is why you kept talking in circles.
simcoder t1_j7jnwd7 wrote
LOL. OK. Well at least I'm not the one making a fool of themselves by not knowing what they are talking about.
Good chat!
moral_luck t1_j7jo0fd wrote
I think you proved you didn't know what you are talking about.
Which is why you avoided talking about it.
simcoder t1_j7jplpb wrote
OK.
Well, anywho, look up those indemnities so next time you'll know what you're talking about. Should make for a much more interesting conversation.
moral_luck t1_j7jqn6g wrote
You've made it very clear you have no idea what indemnities actually are. Or how they work.
You've also made it clear you don't understand that indemnities are not connected to the total socialized cost. How much did "x" corporation contribute to the polluted water of Flint, MI?
Sure, they have indemnities. Even if we legally could and wanted to, we still can't calculate the total cost. We know the total costs is insane, but don't know how many years of lost productive labor was lost due to health issues. Nor can we assign a specific amount of to each corporation, even if indemnities allowed it.
But you're not a lawyer. You just pretend to be one on the internet.
Why don't you explain it to me in your own words? Surely you can ELI5.
simcoder t1_j7jqppb wrote
How can you even make a judgement when you don't even know what they are? No wonder you're a fan of nuclear!
moral_luck t1_j7jrcpq wrote
Well, you still have your chance to prove you know what you are talking about.
Tell me how indemnities are the total final socialized cost of thing.
simcoder t1_j7jrhq7 wrote
I already said why you should find out yourself and you just plowed on with not wanting to know or educate yourself for many many posts.
So why should I do your homework for you?
moral_luck t1_j7jrnv0 wrote
You have no fucking clue, do you? You are completely clueless. You read an article about indemnities in the nuclear industry, and now you have no idea how to explain it at all. You can't actually understand what you read. And you surely wouldn't be able to explain it or connect it to a conversation about socialized costs.
You've proved all this.
simcoder t1_j7jrw8a wrote
So tell me why the indemnities aren't socializing the costs and privatizing the profit?
moral_luck t1_j7jsali wrote
I never said they weren't. I said they are nearly irrelevant when calculating the TRUE socialized cost.
Even if we could sue a coal company from co2 emissions because our crops died from a heat wave, we couldn't. Even if there are no indemnities. It would be hard to prove that that specific plant contributed to that specific heat wave. But it's still a socialized cost, indemnity or not.
You learned a big word and think it's a conversation. You're such a big boy!
simcoder t1_j7jsfqv wrote
How can you say the cost of a cleanup or evacuating a Tokyo or New York is irrelevant?
Those are entirely relevant and were you to include them in the cost structure it would make nuclear power far too expensive to be competitive.
moral_luck t1_j7jslwz wrote
You realize a EULA contain indemnities? Or even being on reddit?
simcoder t1_j7jspuo wrote
It's sounds like you're still kind of struggling to understand the concept WRT nuclear power. Again, i don't think you'll accept my opinion on the matter so I suggest you really try to understand how they work in the nuclear power cost equation and then we can have a more fruitful discussion on the matter.
moral_luck t1_j7jt7rn wrote
Three mile island cost about $1 billion from 1979 to 1991. Or about $3 billion in today's money.
How much cost has coal externalized in the last 40 years?
moral_luck t1_j7jszcb wrote
Quick question. What do you think the total externalized cost of Fukushima was? I have an estimate ~$100billion. Sound like a lot, right?
Coal industry externalizes an estimated $50 billion/year.
simcoder t1_j7jt8v2 wrote
I'm no fan of coal and I'm a huge, huge fan of clean air regulations and things like carbon/pollution taxes. So, to that extent, I'm in favor of acknowledging the true price of coal as well.
But, once you shut the coal plant down, the vast majority of the long term impact shuts down as well. Not so much with nukes. That stuff hangs around for a very long time and you have to manage it all along the way.
That's why the industry requires such extreme indemnities.
[deleted] t1_j7jtnf9 wrote
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moral_luck t1_j7jtvfj wrote
>the vast majority of the long term impact shuts down as well
Source? because I can find one that contradicts this.
simcoder t1_j7ju8f2 wrote
Let me ask you this.
If we had to evacuate or abandon a major city because of a nuclear power plant accident, would you still think that nuclear power was worth it?
moral_luck t1_j7jv00i wrote
You're asking airplanes vs cars here. And we know the answer to that, airplanes are vastly safer.
To answer your question directly. It depends. Basically what would the frequency of occurrence be and what are the alternatives?
With the information we have, yes, it is worth the risk. Why?
Nuclear is a better alternative in terms of externalized economic and health costs than what it would replace (it won't replace solar, wind or hyrdo).
Do you think we should continue to mine and burn coal while we transition to an entirely solar/hydro future? You really think coal is better than nuclear? Or do you think natural gas is better than either of them?
I am assuming you realize that an entirely solar/hyrdo/geothermal/wind electrical grid is not currently feasible. I am also assuming you also realize that is what we will and need to transition into completely in a few generations.
So the real question is, what is best gap filler for the next 50 to 100 years?
simcoder t1_j7jv7xn wrote
Oh I'm not saying we should get rid of nuclear. And I think that nuclear is precisely that, a gap filler till we have something better.
But I also think the risk of having to abandon or evacuate a major city is enough to push nuclear over the edge to a "currently necessary 'evil'" as opposed to some techno silver bullet.
Plus managing the spent fuel for the next 10,000 years or so. That's going to hit your bottom line pretty hard without a govt stepping in and pushing that onto future generations to pay for.
moral_luck t1_j7jvweg wrote
Great! so we're on the same page! Very few people who currently advocate for nuclear thinks it's the end all of electrical generation.
I think it's pretty clear to most people that we should be harnessing the huge fusion reactor in the middle of our solar system for the future use. Currently our issue is energy storage, i.e. batteries. Those will also have externalized costs.
Storage is obviously a long term issue. We have built a seed vault so it's not entirely outside our capability to handle.
But long story short, nuclear is a better option than coal ESPECIALLY when considering externalized costs.
simcoder t1_j7jw6dj wrote
>But long story short, nuclear is a better option than coal ESPECIALLY when considering externalized costs.
I would say they are both bad in unique ways.
However low the risk, abandoning a major city is unimaginably bad. The spent fuel management will soak up money that could be spent on better options for 10,000 years or so after we've transitioned to something else.
And the carbon benefit is not a slam dunk. Particularly when you consider those externalized costs.
[deleted] t1_j7jybwn wrote
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moral_luck t1_j7jw19v wrote
Possibly of interest to you
moral_luck t1_j7jso9c wrote
Now you wanna talk.
How about the cost of the healthcare of all the children who get asthma? What about compensation for their years of lost labor? Coal can't compete if that were the case.
moral_luck t1_j7jsgva wrote
Start reading about coal and health outcomes associated with childhood in certain radii of burning plants.
Or how water is polluted and diverted from agriculture.
Socialized costs are not exclusive to the nuclear industry (or indemnities).
moral_luck t1_j7jlhh7 wrote
moral_luck t1_j7jiv7h wrote
[deleted] t1_j7hm0ef wrote
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GlockAF t1_j7hyoy5 wrote
Ah…the “s-word” rears its ugly, stupid head yet again
simcoder t1_j7hyvq9 wrote
Privatizing profit and socializing cost and hiding true costs are an ugly thing indeed and something that nuke power is entirely dependent upon.
GlockAF t1_j7i17cv wrote
So take the profit margin out of it. Nuclear power should be run entirely by the government/military
simcoder t1_j7i1p76 wrote
Even if you could somehow do that, if you include the true total lifetime cost, it'd require huge subsidies to remain competitive.
Mother-Wasabi-3088 t1_j7hms9q wrote
Nuclear power will never be safe and it's unnecessary. We can easily power the entire world with solar.
Disastrous_Elk_6375 t1_j7hvc22 wrote
> Nuclear power will never be safe
Mmmhhmm. We've had extremely safe, sufficiently compact and mobile nuclear power since the 50s. We know they're safe because navy personnel on nuclear subs / ships have lived long healthy lives. In fact, the commander of the first US nuclear sub (commissioned in 1954) went on to also command the first nuclear ship. He got to live 94 years!
[deleted] t1_j7i0w5c wrote
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SwerdnaJack t1_j7hou5n wrote
But the sheer weight of solar panels on a rocket make it unusable.
GlockAF t1_j7hzltp wrote
False, at current energy use levels.
Potentially possible, if we have massive crash-course investment in transmission, infrastructure and a corresponding (and profoundly improbable) society-wide massive decrease in the average per-capita energy consumption of western countries.
In other words, not possible
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