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Financial_Donut_64 OP t1_j60j1ce wrote

Reply to comment by rthomas10 in How life with UBI could look like by Financial_Donut_64

Very interesting thoughts, I agree that it would be very difficult to make it "fair". Just out of curiosity: Do you think there will be any financial compensation at all if AGI theoretically replaced almost all human workers (unlikely) and if so what could it look like?
Is capitalism going to need to be changed or tinkered with?

Even if you don't believe that there won't be any human workers anymore, I would still be interested in your prediction.

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rthomas10 t1_j60pcxg wrote

Lest you think I'm being difficult I actually think the best solution for humans is to do away with profit all together, everyone gets all that they need. There are barriers to this chief among them is "power corrupts." you could never put together a group of humans that administered society fairly they would and could be influenced by their power. AI distribution of assets? Probably a good start but there would be some human that would game the system and there the problem goes again. also who over sees the AI? Humans are the problem with this and your idea of UBI. Are there some altruistic individuals? sure but there are far more corrupt or influenced humans. I think Bernie was on the right track. (don't tell my conservative friends though) Hell, humans sold other humans for money. That's pretty F'd up.

Look at the Star Trek of old. Their society had no cash (or that was the premise) . Everyone got what they needed, healthcare, food, shelter, toys,...etc. However this was made possible by energy abundance and eventual technological advancement that turned energy into matter. Which is what would be needed to supply everyone with everything they needed or wanted right, material socialism? Take away the struggle for "stuff" and what are you left with? The struggle to do what you want for the joy of "doing" this thing. (which is what you were driving at right? Look I agree with you there) But you would also need to have people doing the "Dirty Jobs" right? How would you incentivize the shitty jobs that need to be done so that society continues without....extra stuff/money/prestige? I haven't figured that one out yet. Perhaps we can design robots to unclog sewars in the future or maybe the mater transmittance tech can just whisk away poop and there won't be clogged sewars. Dunno.

EDIT: In reality if we had abundant clean power then money would become meaningless really.

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gahblahblah t1_j62tmzw wrote

No, I dont think you understand. When there is UBI, there won't be dirty jobs, or at least not for long (the transition period is the tricky part). The point of the need of UBI is that there won't be jobs, because society will be automated.

There also won't be out of control inflation from human greed, because there won't be human run businesses (potentially). The traditional store front with a business owner will be gone - out competed by a ubiquitously cheap AI run, robot staffed, food service.

But the remainder of your negative perception seems to come from a belief of the irredeemably corrupt nature of people. If you truly think this, this would also be an admission that you yourself would behave this way if given the chance.

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rthomas10 t1_j63fr8w wrote

>The point of the need of UBI is that there won't be jobs, because society will be automated.

So when there are no jobs (this will never happen) we can talk about a UBI ok? Humans are all driven by what they perceive as their best interest. Me, you, the person down the street, the politicians pushing the narrative....you will never breed this out of humans.

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gahblahblah t1_j65pzp0 wrote

>Humans are all driven by what they perceive as their best interest

Not necessarily at the expense of everyone and everything else though. Certainly for a long time I considered my main life goal as helping others - but I found that the people that needed help the most seemed to not listen to advice and rather fixated an attempts at exploitation.

>So when there are no jobs (this will never happen) we can talk about a UBI ok?

We can talk about it now, no problem.

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mihaicl1981 t1_j60uf14 wrote

I agree , personally. But I am trying to upgrade to a Tesla( true story , already started the paperwork for leasing)

Say .. normally I get a UBI of 1000 USD /month.

I can't possibly get a new car lease for a 60k car.

They will just take it from my UBI ? Ok , then I need more money for my mansion (can't live in a studio bro) and more for my MacBook.

Of course I could just keep my old Leaf and just accept I can't afford it. But how does it feel to be the one with the old car and small house? You will get to appreciate stoicism fast ..

So sadly capitalism is the only way out .. that or learning hedonic adaptation ..

Wish there was a way for all of us to get our mansions and expensive cars and laptops/phones but somehow this has to be spread.

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Financial_Donut_64 OP t1_j60vx7e wrote

Question that we're kind of left with is, if AGI is so powerful that it can replace almost all human workers - wouldn't it do so for a fraction of the cost? Obv. then the incentive for companies would be to just make more profit, but maybe it also leads to a scenario where consumer goods like cars (and even teslas) also reduce by a substantial amount in cost.

How much of the price of a consumer good is determined by the number of employees working to produce that consumer good?

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grahag t1_j61ni99 wrote

> How much of the price of a consumer good is determined by the number of employees working to produce that consumer good?

While that cost is factored into the cost of a product, the profit margin can be arbitrarily decided.

In a healthy economy, supply and demand is key, but we're in a new age of artificial scarcity where key manufacturers can restrict the flow of a product to boost prices and deny products to the multitudes. Housing, healthcare, fuel, electronics, virtual goods, etc are good examples.

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