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HurricaneSalad t1_j4mwsud wrote

I understood about 30% of this article.

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MeaningfulThoughts t1_j4nd5oo wrote

They’re developing the artificial neurons to let you understand the remaining 70%.

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sumane12 t1_j4nlmfo wrote

Get ChatGPT to explain it to you like you are 5

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winterofchaos t1_j4ogmff wrote

Okay kiddo, so there are these tiny things in our body called neurons that help our brain send messages to the rest of our body. Scientists are trying to make tiny machines that can do the same thing as neurons, but it's hard to make them work the same way. They found a special kind of plastic that can work like a neuron and they used it to make a tiny machine that can send messages like a real neuron. They also found that they can make the machine work better by adding special chemicals called amino acids. They tested the tiny machine on a mouse and it worked really well, just like a real neuron.

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LoquaciousAntipodean t1_j4omypi wrote

Did you actually use ChatGPT? That's a pretty elegant and accurate summary, fk knows what those downvotes are about.

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ThePokemon_BandaiD t1_j4powbm wrote

this is not what the article is about... they didn't use amino acids in any way and these "neurons" definitely weren't used in a mouse because they don't actually function as a neuron, they just mimic the most basic aspect of how a neuron sends a signal along itself, and nothing about how they communicate with eachother.

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OldWorldRevival t1_j4mog8d wrote

Yep... here it comes....

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mindofstephen t1_j4ny4ec wrote

Upgrade your brain by adding more brain.

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Bakoro t1_j4on565 wrote

It's been my dream since I was a kid. Being able to integrate artificial brain to organic brain would soon allow us to map the natural brain's function to the artificial part. As the natural brain fails, you can persist within the artificial brain.

We could gain new abilities, like seeing extra colors, have extra dimensional thinking, have a better in-brain calculations, be able to control extra limbs...

So much of who we are is because of our physical limitations. We could be more.

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Odd_Barnacle_3715 t1_j4ouvcb wrote

Ya seem to misunderstood something here. See the size of the brain doesn't necessarily define it's capabilities, it's like the comparison Between computers which once took an entire room's worth of size but can now fit in the palm of ur hands.

On the other hand I'm not even totally sure how and what would "adding" extra neurons with our own would result in.

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Bakoro t1_j4oxeaa wrote

The size of a natural organic brain absolutely has strong correlation with its capabilities. There are structures in the brain which activate more with certain tasks. A very large portion of the brain is dedicated to controlling the body, to vision, and to problem solving.

Brain plasticity allows the parts of the brain to map to different tasks, but we lose plasticity as we age.

Being able to integrate more brain material by necessity means being able to manipulate that plasticity, and means we'd be able to integrate other body parts into the nervous system.

Perhaps there could be a more efficient way to make a brain, or a way to make brains faster, but as it stands now, more brain space would mean more processing power. The reason people don't have bigger brains is likely because the challenges of birth. Humans already have massive heads, babies heads couldn't be much bigger, and evolution doesn't work in a way that lends itself to the massive structural changes we'd need to solve that.

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JadeCaligrapher t1_j4ps6t5 wrote

Our head doesn't have to be bigger to have more of organic brain. Our head doesn't have to be bigger to have more brain. People with Hydrocephalus have reduced brain volume due to fluid accumulation in their head, yet some of them are still able to function relatively normal with the condition and some don't even know they have it. It seems human's brain can still function even with reduced volume but more dense and this is not that unique at all, some small animal make up for their small head by having a denser brain neuron eg. Goldcrest has almost 50 times neuron density per mg compare to a human brain. Of course I don't know how all this would translate to mental capabilities but it still shows that we can have the same brain mass even with a smaller head, and it would be interesting to see higher neuron density in an average size human head as well.

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Bakoro t1_j4rnua3 wrote

As I said, perhaps there could be more efficient ways to make a brain. Evolution is unlikely to do it for us in any appreciable amount of time. Maybe direct genetic manipulation could, but that's a technique that would serve future generations.

The people with hydrocephalus, and people with brain damage who end up more or less functional, are benefitting from that brain plasticity that I was talking about. Different parts of the brain picking up the slack. Hydrocephalus is also often associated with behavioral and emotional problems, so it's not like a perfect compensation.

I'm not arguing that there is no possible alternative, only that, things stand now, artificial expansion of the brain is the most likely way increase human cognitive ability of existing humans.

If someone comes up with a way to make a human with 50x neuron density, I'm happy to be the experimental papa to that kid.

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shmoculus t1_j4p8wdh wrote

Computers (even the brain) take a lot of energy, you'd have eat a lot more food to run your upgraded brain

Also Facebook (or whatever version of it will exist then) will just use it sell ads straight into your consciousness

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Bakoro t1_j4pby5r wrote

I haven't had a problem accessing an excess of calories.

Facebook can try whatever they want. It'd be a brains arms race, and at a certain point, people would be smart enough to design and manufacture their own stuff, rather than being beholden to corporations.

The thing about intelligence, is that it tends to be freeing.

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mindofstephen t1_j4px91d wrote

I think us Americans have plenty of excess energy to power some brain upgrade modules and can you just came up with one of the first apps for your upgrade, an ad blocking antivirus firewall for your brain.

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OldWorldRevival t1_j4q38ql wrote

Can't wait for Elon Musk to control your mind, eh?

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Bakoro t1_j4rloyp wrote

This is from researchers out of Linköping University, Norrköping, Sweden.
Elon has nothing to do with this.

Mostly I just want people like you to have more than two neurons to rub together.

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brunogadaleta t1_j4n5tie wrote

AFAIU they made a neuron-like transistor based on organic compounds like sodium. I guess it can speedup AI neural network training, lower their cost and/or be integrated in living organisms.

From the article:

Organic electrochemical transistors (OECTs) [...] have multiple desirable features, such as exceptional sensing capabilities for biological and physical plus chemical signals. Moreover, they are biocompatible, switch speeds readily, operate at low voltages, and exhibit coupled ionic–electronic transport properties, which are controllable via external dopants.

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Baturinsky t1_j4nb8vx wrote

Can they be directly rewrited/copied when assembled? I think untamperable architecture could be better for mass production AI.

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LoquaciousAntipodean t1_j4oneof wrote

It's very, very, very early days, crude prototypes at this stage, from what I understood of the article. Its basically a new kind of micro transistor, that can emulate neurons better than normal silicon transistors.

The likelihood of such tech remaining 'untamperable' would be quite low, once the engineering principles are better understood, I would think.

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Shelfrock77 t1_j4mco80 wrote

If it’s an actual artifical neuron, that means it can transmit memory.

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thegoldengoober t1_j4n29q8 wrote

What do you mean by "transmit memory*

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Hazzman t1_j4n7rao wrote

Memories are tiny globs of slime that cling to our neurons. Those tiny globs slide up and down your neurons like trains on a track. When you remember something they slide into an area of the brain called "Salitzar's Pit" which spreads the glob across a cluster of cells that 'read' the memory.

These artificial neurons can transmit memories - a capability that eluded scientists until now. Meaning we can take all the globs of a person's memories and put them in an artificial brain and I'm making all of this nonsense up.

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sidianmsjones t1_j4nilog wrote

I knew it was bs from the getgo and I still wanted to read and understand whatever lore you were concocting.

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Brilliant_War4087 t1_j4ncff2 wrote

Memories are stored in connections between neurons.

https://dornsife.usc.edu/news/stories/3617/where-are-memories-stored-in-the-brain-new-research-suggests-the/

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vernes1978 t1_j4n92mf wrote

First time I heard something like this described.
Could you link me something on the subject?
I tried googling it but it keeps thinking I must be mispelling Salazar's Pit and shows me D&D articles.

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turnip_burrito t1_j4ndvmw wrote

It's a made up lie (a joke). Not real. Hoping that was obvious from... well, the post.

If you knew that and were playing along with it, then disregard.

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vernes1978 t1_j4p5jwr wrote

I never get an counter argument if I plainly call people out.
You need to show genuine interest to even get a grain of effort from their side.
After they horked over the link, you slap them around using arguments you pulled from their source.

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turnip_burrito t1_j4p9hov wrote

It's a joke though, not meant to be believed. It even says its fake right in the post. If someone reads that and actually believes it, let's say it'll be tough to educate them.

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vernes1978 t1_j4pa72y wrote

Never heard of it before.
I'll remember it next time.

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banuk_sickness_eater t1_j4nlt6p wrote

Damn idk why this is funny, is it funny because it tricks the ignorant? If someone doesn't know about neurons this is plausible sounding enough for them to just take it at face value.

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HolyNucleoli t1_j4o1bne wrote

It's plausible sounding that memories are globs of slime that travel to something called 'Salitzar's Pit' to be remembered?

Anybody who takes that at face value should probably not be on the internet

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ThePokemon_BandaiD t1_j4ppjvp wrote

yeah these "neurons" don't actually do anything except transmit an electrical signal slower than a wire...

they simulated action potentials, which is just the way the cells use chemical gradients to send a signal from the body of the neuron to the synapses, and has nothing to do with it's computational capacity.

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Brilliant_War4087 t1_j4ncqez wrote

Cool article. It looks like these neurons use chemical/electrical signaling that mimics action potentials and there analog nature.

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Sandbar101 t1_j4ncu30 wrote

Oh look we were right again.

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AndromedaAnimated t1_j4no3xl wrote

The first steps towards : new frontiers for BCI (electrostimulation of bigger brain circuit parts? integration through blood vessels? Hah, better! Baby we got real artificial neurons for you!) treatment of neural damage and - gasp! - even the use of neurotransmitters in AI 🥹

Best news I read today. Thank you!

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ThePokemon_BandaiD t1_j4pp2z2 wrote

did anyone in these comments actually read the study? this isn't a useful simulation for computation, all it's doing is mimicking action potentials.

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AndromedaAnimated t1_j4q1v8d wrote

I read the article and the actual study, yes, of course.

The special thing about this study is that the artificial neuron is chemically mitigated.

It reacts to neurotransmitters (GABA, glutamine).

It has „real“ calcium (and potassium) ion canals.

And is also compatible with real (mouse) neurons.

Isn’t this interesting in your opinion? It’s a pretty novel thing.

Edit: also it’s not all only about computation in the narrower sense for me - if you read my comment I put the stress on neurobiological/neuropsychological applications of „computing“. This discovery could lead to a revolution in treatment of neurological disorders/brain damage etc.

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ThePokemon_BandaiD t1_j4q4trj wrote

its chemically activated in the same way a pH meter is, and biocompatible in the same way as existing electrostimulation, which has been around for years. its not sensing particular neurotransmitters, just ion charge, and isn't able to provide any computational ability or useable connection to the brain.

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AndromedaAnimated t1_j4q5s4j wrote

It has ion canals that can be more narrow and more wide depending on the thickness of the polymer used, and it can be placed in between biological neurons, providing a „gate“ of sorts. It’s also made of artificial organic material with semiconductor properties.

But if it doesn’t seem interesting for you, oh well - you can have your opinion and I can have mine.

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ThePokemon_BandaiD t1_j4q6jhc wrote

interesting yes, but not relevant to learning or intelligence, which this sub is based around.

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AndromedaAnimated t1_j4q6s85 wrote

It’s relevant to human enhancement though, which is also topic of the sub ;)

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ThePokemon_BandaiD t1_j4oo0e2 wrote

I didn't read the actually study yet, but based on the article and my understanding of the field, this doesn't really seem that significant. it's just mimicking action potentials, the way an electric signal is transmitted chemically along a neuron, while the current understanding of the brain suggests that most of the information processing ability of neurons comes from the receptor-neurotransmitter balances and receptor regulation at the synapses, and how that affects network organization. those mechanisms are what allow learning, like back propogation or similar algorithms in NNs.

Edit: fixed "feels" to "field", and i did finish reading the study and my point stands.

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AndromedaAnimated t1_j4q30v1 wrote

If you didn’t read the study and base your understanding on the „feels“, how can you then go and critique it?

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ThePokemon_BandaiD t1_j4q44ei wrote

typo, i meant field. ive studied neuroscience for a few years in college and a good bit on my own. i read the article before commenting, also did just finish reading the study, and this tech really doesn't seem all that useful as opposed to existing electrostimulation of neurons and basic ion sensors. it could be useful in treating some neurological conditions in the future as a feedback device similar to a pacemaker, but doesn't really have any bearing on intelligence, computation, or the singularity.

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AndromedaAnimated t1_j4q4q0f wrote

Well, I studied neuropsychology and neurobiology in university, finished successfully too (Master’s level), so we are probably even ;) And to me it seems like a really nice direction of research with great results.

Why do you think that this direction is less interesting than direct brain stimulation/sensors? If you don’t mind writing more on the topic.

Edit: glad you corrected the „feels“ thing to field, it was rather confusing.

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ThePokemon_BandaiD t1_j4q5qkr wrote

I'll give you that you probably understand it better than me haha. i agree it is interesting research that could be useful in understanding the nervous system, my point is that it that it doesn't seem to have the relevance to the singularity and BCI that people in the comments are assuming. I'd imagine that BCI would require more understanding of neuroreceptor regulation and how expression levels change to allow useful self organizing properties(and therefore learning, self regulation etc), and that signals could be transmitted in such a system just as well through purely electrical means rather than simulating the slower electrochemical propogation of action potentials.

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AndromedaAnimated t1_j4q66hq wrote

Maybe you accidentally chose my comment to reply on in the beginning after reading the long discussion about the topic of brain devices and Elon Musk? 🤣

I understand being sceptical. For me it’s a promising step into a more precise way of combining bio brain with computing. The other approaches can still be valid!

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Voxmanns t1_j4q5q1w wrote

I think it's hard to tell.

I see this being most applicable to some brain and nerve damage, and maybe reduce the effects of decaying brain function in old age eventually.

It could also be a step towards better research of the brain. Since neurons are one of the building blocks of the brain, they might be able to create their own artificial synapse networks and learn more about how to treat, repair, or even augment complex neural networks inside of a real brain. Hell, if you push it far enough it might even be a means for them to build mimics of (or even totally new and useful) neural networks for people.

I'm getting ahead of myself though. I think the big step in this is that it's a fundamental piece of doing those crazy brain and CNS things we want to do. On its own, it's probably not going to be any thing super crazy. But it is a big piece of the puzzle.

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ThePokemon_BandaiD t1_j4q677q wrote

My point is its not simulating any of the computational aspects of the neuron, which lie mainly in neurotransmitter receptor expression and regulation, its basically just simulating the biochemical version of wires, which for computational purposes, can be simulated more simply with just regular wires, which are also much faster.

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No_Ninja3309_NoNoYes t1_j4q0skc wrote

The abstract: "Biointegrated neuromorphic hardware holds promise for new protocols to record/regulate signalling in biological systems. Making such artificial neural circuits successful requires minimal device/circuit complexity and ion-based operating mechanisms akin to those found in biology. Artificial spiking neurons, based on silicon-based complementary metal-oxide semiconductors or negative differential resistance device circuits, can emulate several neural features but are complicated to fabricate, not biocompatible and lack ion-/chemical-based modulation features. Here we report a biorealistic conductance-based organic electrochemical neuron (c-OECN) using a mixed ion–electron conducting ladder-type polymer with stable ion-tunable antiambipolarity. The latter is used to emulate the activation/inactivation of sodium channels and delayed activation of potassium channels of biological neurons. These c-OECNs can spike at bioplausible frequencies nearing 100 Hz, emulate most critical biological neural features, demonstrate stochastic spiking and enable neurotransmitter-/amino acid-/ion-based spiking modulation, which is then used to stimulate biological nerves in vivo. These combined features are impossible to achieve using previous technologies."

So seven years before this leaves the lab, and seven more before it is mass produced in a meaningful way?

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