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mocha_sweetheart t1_j1krzdn wrote

Reply to comment by Accomplished_Box_907 in This is how chatGPT sees itself. by Kindly-Customer-1312

Nobody is getting transition surgeries as a young kid, at a young age it’s always just a social transition, and then puberty blockers which have fully reversible effects, and then feminizing or masculinizing hormones which also have reversible effects before a certain point, and even then all this is exclusively happening only after months or possibly even years of counseling and under the guidance of a therapist and doctor. Little kids aren’t just going to a clinic and coming out with multiple surgeries. Please don’t be brainwashed by what conservatives are telling you.

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Accomplished_Box_907 t1_j1siff0 wrote

Lmao seriously? These arent reversable. When you grow an Adams apple there is no going back. That is a lie.

And as a "young kid". you put that on purpose. Because you know 15 year old's are getting healthy breasts removed. This should not/cannot happen.

Also, you've mentioned that a transgenders brain matches that of the gender they identify with. What does that mean? Are you telling me that there IS a biological basis for gender? That men and women are different with their own strengths and weaknesses? That sounds very conservative of you. "lol my brain tells me that i want to nurture my kids and stay home from work, hm i must be a girl." Thats pretty ridiculous.

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mocha_sweetheart t1_j1skypx wrote

The third point is the most important here so read that first

  1. So then how do you think a trans woman feels when her family forces her not to transition and develop the wrong features? Anyway, i said before a certain point; this is especially true for puberty blockers etc.

  2. Imagine if you were a teen boy with large breasts that made you dysphoric every time you saw them in the mirror or felt them on your body, and with the guidance of a therapist after months or years of transitioning etc. you got them removed; Or do you think you shouldn’t have the right to make such a decision?

  3. You’re confusing gender norms with neurological gender; There is a difference between the neurological gender in the brain versus the gender norms which vary from society to society. Please actually read the article I posted above.

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Accomplished_Box_907 t1_j1svyxr wrote

Ill address them numbered as well to simplify things

  1. a trans woman would not be forced, because she is a woman. A child should not be able to make these choices, just like they cannot make just about any other choice, why is this different?
  2. Imagine if you were a teen boy with large ears that made you dysphoric every time you saw them in the mirror or felt them on your body, and with the guidance of a therapist after months or years of transitioning etc. you got them removed; Or do you think you shouldn’t have the right to make such a decision?...... people have been doing things to their bodies for years, like full body tattoes, horns, and who knows what. I don't have a problem with that, even if i think most stem from trauma or some other issue. Its that no kid should have the responsibility of such a permanent decision.
  3. I have just read the article and it was extremely vague with no real examples, quite unscientific. Also, behaving like a woman or having the interests of a woman really might cause your brain to look more like one of a woman. Just like cab drivers have much largers areas of the brain for depth perception, because they are always using that. regardless this does not change anything to me, there can be feminine men, and manly women. totally fine. Again you still did not tell me, what are the traits of a woman if the ones i stated are gender norms?
  4. (My extra point) Pretend there was a male chimpanzee that behaved like a female. It wanted to care for the babies, was more submissive, lacked aggression, had lower muscle mass and preferred whatever female chimps do, would you consider this a female chimp? would this be scientifically accurate? Or is this a male chimp, exhibiting traits that are typical of a female

I want to clarify i sympathize with anyone with any issues with their body. I just disagree with the solution. I think its poor souls who havent accepted the bodies god gave them. Or nature if thats your thing. Its just i could not imagine these surgeries that have such terrible success rates being the solution.

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mocha_sweetheart t1_j1syauu wrote

  1. Yeah, you’d be surprised to see how many trans people are in situations where they can’t be independent from family etc. or can’t transition due to such things as people around them threatening them with violence etc. a study found a HUGE amount of detrans people detransition due to external social pressure, I can send you it if you want

  2. Trans people aren’t brain dead, we can distinguish between stuff we are dysphoric about (e.g my chest being small) due to gender and stuff we are dysmorphic about (e.g like the big ears thing you mentioned). also, transitioning is the medically endorsed treatment for gender dysphoria

  3. It is based on a lot of studies I can pull up if you’d like, and this was coming from a doctor so who would I rather trust, an actual doctor or a random guy online in a totally unrelated field? also you’re the one being unscientific here by claiming about the “behaving like the gender changes your brain to that thing.” As for what the traits of a woman are, I’d say a woman is just someone who identifies as such; “Woman” is just an identity label. Claims about identity are unfalsifiable and therefore not debatable.

  4. Again, you’re confusing sexual dimorphism, gender norms, and neurological gender; I would say that we cannot determine the identity of the chimp, we could call it male because it is an animal but that is not the same as the identity humans have that we call a man.

Also, did I comment to you the trans fact sheet document above?

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Accomplished_Box_907 t1_j1t08qe wrote

Prefacing this by saying you are using loads of buzzwords without really addressing my points

  1. This may be the case. I could imagine not coming out or not transitioning because of how id be viewed by my family. But when we talk about kids here, its just a different story. BUT I've seen the opposite, where they have permanently ruined their body and cannot go back. Here is one https://www.dennyburk.com/chloe-cole-tells-her-story-of-detransition/. worth the read, she is actively protesting against this and i saw her speak in person at a rally against child mutilation.
  2. How can you determine this? Are you saying she wasnt a "True" transgender and she was too stupid to tell the difference? Medically endorsed means nothing to me, electroshock therapy was medically endorsed at one point. Definition of Dysphoria "a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life.". This can be applied to anything you call "dysmorphic" as well. Including but not limited to body weight and other self image issues.
  3. I never asked you to put trust in me, but i also havent tried to discredit you because youre a teen who has more than once quoted a random person directly from one of the subreddits you linked me before. Much of what you say is just what is fed to you by people with financial incentive to do so. (See? a downfall of capitalism. We can agree sometimes)

3.1. Come on, a circular definition? A woman is someone who identifies as
a woman. So THATS why you have not provided the traits of a woman,
because you all have wiped women off of the map. They do not exist
anymore. So you identify as something without any specific trait,
something that can be anything, and lives on a large spectrum?
Sounds like you're a male who enjoys feminine things/ has a feminine
personality, and that is fine. Why do you want to be a woman, if there
is nothing specifically exclusive to women?

  1. Not sure what to say to this, as there is no further way to prove a
    chimps "identity". We are animals by the way, we just have the ability
    for confusion, unlike the chimp

You did send the sheet before, i do not have access

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mocha_sweetheart t1_j1u76kl wrote

Here's something similar to the sheet with dozens of studies supportiing trans people etc. while I find the new link https://www.reddit.com/r/musicotic/comments/8ttud4/a_comprehensive_defense_of_trans_people/

  1. You talk about these few anecdotal examples because of the body horror aspect of people feeling trapped in the wrong body, but that's already how trans people feel in situations where they are unable to transition. The reason people often try to block having the puberty of the gender they don't identify with is because that feeling of being in the wrong body is so painful that most of us get suicidal ideation from it; In fact... Well-being (of transgender children after puberty suppression) was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958 Early transition virtually eliminates these higher rates of depression and low self-worth http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext Transition dramatically improves mental health among trans kids https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-03/tes-sdc030615.php The younger one transitions, the fewer problems one will have https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23512380
  2. Well, they are different phenomena that feel very differently and you'd understand if it you had gender dysphoria but you don't, and most trans people talk about how hormone therapy helps with some of those issues but not others making the distinction even easier

3.1 First of all, read the replies on this thread that explain it a lot better https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/u3e7ad/comment/i4oy0j8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 Second of all, again, claims about identity are always unfalsifiable and I will not tolerate you denying my identity or dismissing it. I am a woman

  1. Yes, exactly, you can't prove a chimp's identity much the same way as how some external features don't prove a person's internal neurological identity
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Accomplished_Box_907 t1_j1vqvxh wrote

I saw someone say in there to eventually abolish man and woman and only have male and female.... Like that is where we started. Look i may be done with the debate on gender because it appears weve reached the root. You believe you have a feeling of woman inside you, Yet you have never been a woman, how can you "know their truth" as you all like to say. You cannot feel like something that does not exist, and if it does not exist, why not be called by your identifying trait, male or female, and be whoever you feel like being. He and She have NEVER described someones personality or role. Just like when i say she when referring to a female body builder, or he when referring to a gay man. Your pronouns do not effect who you want to be. AND YES, identities are falsifiable. I am not a wolf, I will never be a wolf, and there is no feeling of a wolf because i do not know what that is like.

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mocha_sweetheart t1_j1w9442 wrote

Did you see the response on the communism thing in the other thread? Also did you expect me to not notice how you didn’t respond to any other part of my comment?

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