4354574 t1_ita77wj wrote on October 22, 2022 at 1:56 AM

Reply to comment by SWATSgradyBABY in A/I AND WARFARE by elitta23

Evidence for your claims?

Ukraine had pledged NOT to join NATO. The EU is an economic arrangement. It played along with Russian demands.

Let's not play coy and pretend Ukraine was ever even remotely a threat to Russia. This was all about Putin's ego and Russian imperialism, the USA had nothing to do with it.

Except to the extent that Putin wanted a proxy war with the USA. He got one.

SWATSgradyBABY t1_itab2q2 wrote on October 22, 2022 at 2:29 AM

The CIA admits to training paramilitaries in Ukraine since 2014. That's what they openly admit. And we know the CIA keeps secrets. How long have they been training Ukrainian paramilitaries?

Ask yourself if the US would allow a broken off Texas to have Russia's KGB training paramilitaries in Texas. You know the US would put a stop to it.

The USA official policy is to drain Russia with this conflict, making it unable to be aggressive in the future. That's US policy. The US has said it won't engage in diplomacy. Because that would contradict the policy of dragging Russia down with this conflict. Putin is a war criminal and should be put in front of the international court for his crimes. The US is run by war criminals as well and they want this war, too.

The Warsaw Pact was a collective defense treaty between Russia and its satellite countries. When they tore down the Berlin wall and then dissolved the Warsaw Pact the agreement was that these countries would remain a neutral buffer zone and not become a part of a US collective defense agreement (NATO). Since then the US has been inviting more and more of those countries into NATO and putting anti-missile systems in those countries. Surrounding Russia with more and more American allies who have anti-missile systems. The announced point of this is to nullify Russia as a nuclear threat. Imagine if Russia did this around the US. Imagine Russia saying that those moves weren't a provocation of any kind. It would be laughable. But American propaganda is powerful. Americans believe this laughable narrative. They take this laughable narrative completely seriously. When you set up your argument by suggesting its ridiculous that Russia sees Ukraine as a threat, I know that I can't take the argument seriously. Every Russian sees Ukraine, which has received almost 10 billion dollars in arms from the US as a military puppet of the United States. They are obviously correct.

4354574 t1_itaewxw wrote on October 22, 2022 at 3:03 AM

If only Russia hadn't given Ukraine so much reason to let the CIA train paramilitaries on its soil...you know...after the illegal invasion...

Did the USA force anyone to join NATO? No. Did Russia force Ukraine and other countries to join the USSR? Yes. Did the USSR force the Warsaw Pact countries together? Yes. Did the USSR crush uprisings in these countries? Yes. You cool with that? Let's not pretend history didn't happen the way it did and revise it like Russia is doing.

Given the history of Russia's behaviour with its neighbours, it would make perfect sense that they would all want in on NATO.

SWATSgradyBABY t1_itahnmp wrote on October 22, 2022 at 3:28 AM

The US stole California, New Mexico, Texas, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico from Mexico. Despite that, Mexico and the United States are allies. I say that to explain that Russia does and has had imperial motives. The US does as well and is objectively worse than Russia. I don't like being pedantic but you defend the hypocrisy of the US as if you have little knowledge of history. Every crime Russia has committed the US has committed two-fold. Stolen land? Russia has nothing on America. As for this war, the peace is brokered between the major powers. If you and I make peace and it rests on neutrality between buffer states, I can't put missile defense systems in those countries and play innocent saying Poland wanted them! I just gave them what they wanted. Not if I'm serious about our brokered peace. The US knows that it has been provoking Russia for decades. Everyone outside of the US knows this. The history is obvious. But if you simply CHOOSE to interpret it as CNN says there is nothing I can do about this. And I notice you keep pawing at the notion that Russia has done bad things. Putin is a war criminal. I said that first and I maintain it so you're arguing with a straw man about that.

My point is obvious. The US has been provoking Russia while indoctrinating Americans as to how to understand the US/Russia relationship. Regardless of easily obtainable facts. We should be brokering a ceasefire. Ukrainians are being killed! America has stated that they won't negotiate.

Countingblackcrows t1_itbjqo3 wrote on October 22, 2022 at 11:37 AM

Russian bots man

4354574 t1_itcwby5 wrote on October 22, 2022 at 5:59 PM

I never thought that, but now I’m wondering if this guy actually is one. Or a troll, anyway. If there’s a difference.

4354574 t1_itcw3e1 wrote on October 22, 2022 at 5:58 PM

Whoa that triggered you so bad you had to reach back 170 years to find something to counter me with :D

I’m not attempting any straw men because I never said that you supported Putin in the first place. What I’m saying is, I am not buying what you’re selling. There is absolutely not even close to a moral equivalence here. Not even close. And you say you agree, but then say “But the USA can be bad too.” So what? Russia has historically behaved much worse. Which country would you prefer on your border? You’re mealy-mouthing.

You need to educate yourself more about Russian history. You probably have no idea that Russia has been an imperialist, expansionist power since 200 years before the USA existed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Siberia (1580-1778)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsardom_of_Russia "From 1551 to 1700, Russia grew by 35,000 km2 per year."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_Hetmanate (Ukraine) Vassal status with the Tsardom of Russia was established in 1654.

The list of Russia's egregious imperialist crimes is far longer and far larger that the USA's. If we confine ourselves to the 20th-21st Centuries, Russia's crimes absolutely dwarf America's.

And it wasn't going to stop. Unlike the chastened USA, which pulled out of Afghanistan last year, allowing the poor innocent Taliban to retake control of the country - Russia was going to continue to bully, threaten and intimidate its neighbours and continue its policy of subverting democracy around the world. For instance, Russia interfered in the 2020 American election, and given how razor-thin that margin was, it is a certainty that Russia enabled Trump's victory.

The USA also has a habit of having to make everything about itself. Even the war in Ukraine must be about the USA, because the American ego demands it. It couldn't possibly be a 300-year-old story about Russian exploitation of Ukraine, no, the USA must be involved somehow.

If you’re really serious about educating yourself on this issue, you should watch the following talk, specifically the part up until 47:25. Stephen Kotkin, Russia expert, talks to Lex Friedman about the exact issue we’re discussing. I’m sure you’ve heard of Fridman if you hang out here.

Stephen Kotkin: Putin, Stalin, Hitler, Zelenskyy, and War in Ukraine | Lex Fridman Podcast

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2a7CDKqWcZ0

But you probably won’t. You don’t seem interested in hearing other points of view.

I've said everything I wanted to say. If this doesn't get through to you, nothing will. FYI, I’m Canadian. We aren’t exactly blind to the USA’s failings. But you’re being absurd. Have a nice life.