Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

the_coyote_smith t1_irhbbo1 wrote

> If you think it's valid then why are you trying to put art in a priveledged position over farm work? Both can be spiritual, both can lead to self actualization.

I didn't - because I think if someone wants to farm manually, they should have the availability to live a good life, economically to do so. Not just as a hobby.

> You can't have it both ways here. Just earlier today I was listening to an artist complain (rightfully so by the way) that friends/family always ask them to make them stuff for free and they get mad because their friends and family don't understand that it's work not just something done for enjoyment. Making art is work, it may sometimes be nice work to do, something you would prefer to do over other forms of work but it's still 100% work or those friends and family would have a legitimate case in asking for free shit.

I want to work, and in the future, I want work. That's the fucking point.

> I'm not trying to be rude, I'm not trying to be a dick.

You may not be trying to, but you're not being very understanding of the artist perspective. Like, for me personally, I went to college for something I hated, because I thought (and was told) art wouldn't be a good career option. Then the depression and thoughts of suicide kicked in, I went and got help, dropped out of the MA that I hated being in, and decided to work odd jobs and do art on the side so that maybe I could have a future where I did care about my work. And this is taking a shit on that too. So, I do take it rather personally when I get called entitled, naive, privileged, or whatever the fuck else that diminishes the hours of lost sleep, blood, sweat, and tears I gave to be here right now.

You are right in that this is the course of history. But I ask - who's side are you really on here? Do you think artists deserve a good life or not? Because I do. Art is the actualization of beauty, changes so many lives, and helps a lot of people. I'd hate myself to be on the side against those individuals.

1

FilthyCommieAccount t1_irhdvoe wrote

>I didn't - because I think if someone wants to farm manually, they should have the availability to live a good life, economically to do so. Not just as a hobby.

But this is utopian. Society doesn't have the resources to just let people do whatever the fuck they want for a living regardless of it's efficiency, cost or societal utility. Like what, tax payers should prop up people who want to produce food at 10 times the cost for no societal benefit?

>I want to work, and in the future, I want work. That's the fucking point.

Me too bro. So did all the textile workers, the elevator and switchboard operators etc. But shit gets automated and we aren't sad really sad about their loss are we because overall society was better for it.

It's shit and it's unfair but society isn't going to lose out to benefit a very small proportion of the population. You're gonna have to reskill in something else or adapt to AI and use it as long as you can before getting replaced.

>You may not be trying to, but you're not being very understanding of the artist perspective.

I can't personally understand but I do sort of get it and have sympathy for the position y'all are in. It just doesn't change my opinion. Do you know how many jobs were automated during the industrial revolution? Do you even understand the scale of the human suffering that happened during that time period? And acknowledging all that pain and suffering it was still worth it.

>Like, for me personally, I went to college for something I hated, because I thought (and was told) art wouldn't be a good career option. Then the depression and thoughts of suicide kicked in, I went and got help, dropped out of the MA that I hated being in, and decided to work odd jobs and do art on the side so that maybe I could have a future where I did care about my work. And this is taking a shit on that too. So, I do take it rather personally when I get called entitled, naive, privileged, or whatever the fuck else that diminishes the hours of lost sleep, blood, sweat, and tears I gave to be here right now.

I didn't call you privileged because you're an artist. I said your assumption that most people do something they like is 100% untrue. Just think about all the developing countries in the world, the poverty, the lack of education etc. Do you really think those people are doing something they want to do? Hell no, they get their meaning from their family, their friends etc. Closer to home think about most middle class and lower class jobs. Do you think stocking shelves is fulfilling for most people? How about plugging numbers into a spreadsheet or how about weilding two pieces of metal together in a tin can at a 110 degrees Fahrenheit like my father's done since he was 16? The typical experience is to dislike your job.

>You are right in that this is the course of history. But I ask - who's side are you really on here?

I'm on societies side the vast majority of whom are not artists.

>Do you think artists deserve a good life or not?

Of course I do. Do you think elevator operators deserved a good life back in the day? Do you think we should have kept them around because you wanted them to have a good life?

>Art is the actualization of beauty, changes so many lives, and helps a lot of people.

And organic farming is not only a direct connection to the earth but to our ancestors. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be so automated.

>I'd hate myself to be on the side against those individuals.

Again, no one is saying artists won't be able to create or express themselves. They just won't largely do it for money. They will largely do it as a hobby without monetary incentive and have to reskill into another trade just like everyone else that's been automated. You keep putting artists on a pedestal. Why do you think an artist has more inherent value as a person than say a truck driver? Which is another job that will be automated in the coming years?

1

the_coyote_smith t1_irhehp8 wrote

> I said your assumption that most people do something they like is 100% untrue.

I never said it was - I said that most people want to do something they like - which you claimed was entitled.

>Just think about all the developing countries in the world, the poverty, the lack of education etc. Do you really think those people are doing something they want to do?

And you know what they do? They fight like hell to get out of it.

> I can't personally understand but I do sort of get it and have sympathy for the position y'all are in. It just doesn't change my opinion.

Okay - good for you, I guess.

> Of course I do. Do you think elevator operators deserved a good life back in the day? Do you think we should have kept them around because you wanted them to have a good life?

Yes - if they truly had the passion for it.

> They just won't largely do it for money. They will largely do it as a hobby without monetary incentive and have to reskill into another trade just like everyone else that's been automated.

Alas, the art itself suffers as a result.

1

FilthyCommieAccount t1_irhfvlw wrote

>I never said it was - I said that most people want to do something they like - which you claimed was entitled.

Then this is just a case of classic misunderstanding. Let's move on because I'm not saying it's bad or entitled for people to want to do something they like. It would only be entitled if they expected society to supply them with that even if it were a detriment to society.

>And you know what they do? They fight like hell to get out of it.

No they don't lol. Do you think the even a sizable portion of those in the developing world try to emigrate?

>Yes - if they truly had the passion for it.

This is comical. So in your ideal world society is just made of money and instead of trying to fill socially useful roles with qualified candidates ppl should just do whatever the fuck they want? Like if I want to make mudpies for a living the state should pay me to do it? Do you really think a society like that would be prosperous in the long run?

>Alas, the art itself suffers as a result.

If the art suffers then it was never about self expression or actualization etc. in the first place. Because it will still be possible to do human made art without a monetary incentive.

1

the_coyote_smith t1_irjzixb wrote

> No they don’t lol. Do you think the even a sizable portion of those in the developing world try to emigrate?

Yes? Have you see the USA’s immigration situation? Lol.

Like sometimes shit hits the fan and it’s hard, but don’t act like people don’t actually try and emigrate from 3rd world countries. I know of artists who are from poor as hell countries, who had a family and did their artwork at night when the electricity is off and everyone was asleep - and now they work in the industry here in the West. I don’t really think the amount of people who do that really matters, it’s clear people do it haha. I had an Uber driver from Rwanda the other day.

> This is comical. So in your ideal world society is just made of money and instead of trying to fill socially useful roles with qualified candidates ppl should just do whatever the fuck they want? Like if I want to make mudpies for a living the state should pay me to do it? Do you really think a society like that would be prosperous in the long run?

Funny you bring this up because one of the pillars of the pro-AI, pro-Singularity rhetoric is the need for UBI. Which would very much be in line with your scenario here. AI would take all jobs, everyone has UBI, don’t have jobs, and we just … chill I guess? If we embraced the AI with no question - than yes you could make mudpies all you want.

> If the art suffers then it was never about self expression or actualization etc. in the first place. Because it will still be possible to do human made art without a monetary incentive.

I agree. I just fear that it will destroy the incentives for the kids of the future to pick up a pencil.

Like it has already for so many people (not everyone or everywhere, of course - where I’m from art is laughable but other places, it’s much more of a respectable job prospect). But, some of the most insane art exists right now because of the entertainment industry, and a world where you could be monetarily compensated for your hard work.

1

FilthyCommieAccount t1_irk2ar8 wrote

>Yes? Have you see the USA’s immigration situation? Lol.

Yeah and guess what? It's absolutely dwarfed by the developing world. Most people in the developing world aren't putting in emmigration applications. Now would they choose to move if given the opportunity? Certainly a higher number of them would but I'd still guess not the majority because their language, culture, customs, traditions and family are more important to them. Most aren't trying to escape they just make do with what they have.

>Like sometimes shit hits the fan and it’s hard, but don’t act like people don’t actually try and emigrate from 3rd world countries.

I never said ppl don't try it's just that the majority don't. Do I need to go pull up emmigration applications statistics?

>Funny you bring this up because one of the pillars of the pro-AI, pro-Singularity rhetoric is the need for UBI. Which would very much be in line with your scenario here. AI would take all jobs, everyone has UBI, don’t have jobs, and we just … chill I guess? If we embraced the AI with no question - than yes you could make mudpies all you want.

Do we currently live in a world where all labor is automated? So why would you pay people to do socially useless jobs? It's one thing to give support to ppl who were displaced by AI and help them get new skills. It's another to start hiring switchboard operators again. Like I said it's absolutely comical.

>I agree. I just fear that it will destroy the incentives for the kids of the future to pick up a pencil.

Again then their hearts were never in the right place to begin with according to you.

>...some of the most insane art exists right now because of the entertainment industry, and a world where you could be monetarily compensated for your hard work.

This is kind of my point actually. Most professional art really isn't about self expression anyway. It's been so marketized and commodified that it's just a product. Very few people know a specific animator because it doesn't matter who made it to them, what their background is or what they went through in their childhood etc. It's literally a commodity in the true sense of the word just like corn or oil. If the monetary incentive went away human made art would be more about self expression again.

1