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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir0sc5y wrote

When people say it will be more intelligent, I'm not sure they understand what that means when talking about a universal intelligence such as our own. Once you hit universality, the only increases you have are in memory and processing power. That's not to say those advances won't have measurable effects. But this idea that it will just be beyond us is supernatural thinking. There is nothing an AGI could do or create that we couldn't understand or have explained to us. This comparison between us and chickens is totally misplaced. There is a qualitative difference between being strictly programmed by genes, and having universal explanatory power like us. AGI won't be a qualitative difference like that, merely quantitative. There are no qualitative leaps to make. Universal is universal. You can be more universal.

Given enough time and interest, we can already understand anything, as explanations are just strings of statements building one after the other. AGI will be able to think insanely fast and about many things at once, but it'll still be qualitatively similar to the computations our brains perform. There is only one way to compute, so it's not like AGI can use a new "type" of computation, and as I said, universal is universal. Imagine a human who can think a million times faster, remember everything perfectly, and think about a lot at once. That's ASI. It will certainly have major advantages, but it won't be incomprehensible.

Humans in the past would think we were using magic, it's true. But humans in the past didn't have the scientific revolution. If we met super advanced aliens that learned our language, there is no knowledge they had that they couldn't teach us, regardless of how complex. At the very most, they'd have to enhance our processing power and memory to teach the very most complex concepts, but that still doesn't require any qualitative change. People often use the example of planes inspired by birds, but taking a completely different route to get there. But that's not really a good example, because we still use the same laws of physics and the same principles to create lift, we just do it in a different way. In that same sense, AGI may be done in a different way, but it will still be the same principle of universality as our own minds.

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Cryptizard t1_ir13qdi wrote

I think you are likely correct, but the assumption you are making is that there is no "next level" of physics that we aren't even close to breaching yet. Like how we went from classical mechanics to quantum physics. It changed basically everything. If there is some other deeper thing that explains some of the many things we can't explain with our current models, it could lead to crazy new physics that would be very hard for us to understand. There is no guarantee that it would be as understandable as what we have now. It could be 1000x more complex or something.

And then imagine that there might be a level beyond even that one that is 1000x more complex. We just don't know. If all we have is the physics that we know about right now, then yeah everything will be explainable to us but also the "power" of the AI will be severely limited compared to what people traditionally imagine when thinking about the singularity. There will be physical limits to what even the super-powered AI can do.

Bottom line, I think we just have no idea of knowing what is going to happen. That is why it is called the singularity.

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red75prime t1_ir25nxr wrote

Memory, processing power, simplified access to your own hardware, ability to construct much more complex mental representations.

Feynman said once that when he solves a problem he constructs a mental representation (a ball that grows spikes, spikes become multicolored, something like that) that captures conditions of a problem and then he can just see the solution. Imagine that you can visualize 10-dimentional manifold that changes its colors (in color space with six primary colors).

Yep, scientists are probably able to painstakingly construct layer after layer of intuitions that will allow them to make sense of AI's result, which it simply had seen. But along universality there's efficiency. Three-layer neural network is an universal approximator, but it's terribly inefficient at learning.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir276sm wrote

I totally grant that, but it's important to note that we still haven't even come close to hitting the limits of our understanding. Which is to say, any extra memory and processing power we've needed to understand anything, we've been very good at offloading to external systems, as with our computers.

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[deleted] t1_ir26vdv wrote

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir27snz wrote

All those examples are nonsense though. Everyone CAN get a PhD from MIT and anything else. We all have that potential ability. Not everyone has the interest or creates the requisite knowledge to be able to do it, but we all have the potential. The people who can't (not counting mentally disabled), still could if they had the interest and learned the requisite knowledge. That does NOT mean everyone who tries will succeed. What it does mean is everyone who tries has a universal brain that can, in principle, succeed.

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[deleted] t1_ir2vuot wrote

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir35w4a wrote

It's amazing that you're the one saying that "average" people cannot, in principle, understand some things, yet you're calling me arrogant. What you're saying is absurd. It's a matter of interest, pure and simple. IQ is testing for very specific things, and those who are interested in those types of things, language, math, patterns, etc, score higher. Those who aren't interested in those things score lower, and tend to always score lower because they never become interested enough to learn them. Rarely is someone truly passionate about mathematics but unable to learn it because of some fundamental limitation. The only people that applies to are those who are cognitively limited in severe ways that prevent them from learning. The fact is, people you so easily dismiss as being innately stupid, just aren't interested in intellectual pursuits, which unfortunately is extremely common in our civilization. Even those with slight cognitive disabilities could get a PhD at MIT if they were extremely interested in doing so, and had the lifespan it would take to learn it at their much slower pace. Most people like that aren't interested at all in intellectual pursuits, because of culture, but also because, with it taking so much longer to learn things, it's just not fun.

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red75prime t1_ir48f51 wrote

It would make no practical difference whatsoever if an average person needs, say, 200 years to make their first non-trivial contribution to mathematics or physics. And you can't rule out such possibility from the first principles.

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pentin0 t1_irugtmm wrote

Some people seem to have a hatred for counterfactuals and/or abstraction. Let them live in the prison of their own emotions.

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sideways t1_ir39t47 wrote

Are you saying that there is a specific line that separates "limited intelligence" from "universal intelligence" and that "mentally disabled" people (and presumably animals) fall on the limited side?

Where do you see that border? Do you have any evidence to back that up?

Personally, I'd love to believe that I have universal intelligence but I'm skeptical since I doubt that a lower level of intelligence is able to even recognize a level of intelligence sufficiently beyond it.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir3gubk wrote

Also, it's important to note, a lower qualitative level of intelligence can't recognize a greater intelligence. For example, my pet cat doesn't realize I'm smarter than it (in fact I have a feeling it assumes the opposite lol). But there is no higher qualitative level than us. That's really the main point, there is no higher than universal. There could be much greater quantitative intelligences than us, but we would definitely recognize that. It would just be an entity with massive creative ability, but they would still be able to explain everything to us, and even without them explaining it, if we took the time we could understand it ourselves.

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sideways t1_ir3l5kh wrote

That was exactly my point.

If you agree that a lower qualitative level of intelligence can't recognize a greater one, what makes you so confident that our level is "universal"?

Perhaps we can agree that a baby or small child, similar to animals, does not have universal intelligence. At what point do people "graduate" into it?

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir56hmf wrote

I mean there is clearly a cut off, and we clearly do "graduate" into it. But it's probably very very young. Definitely a baby already has it. They're constantly learning new things almost immediately, if not immediately, which means the graduation could possibly be in the womb. But this is an unsolved problem. We can be pretty sure that no other animals have it, or else they wouldn't be limited on what they can learn.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir3bw0x wrote

So when I said "mentally disabled" in that context, I meant severely. As in, needs round the clock care. People with functional intellectual disabilities still have universal intelligence, it's just hindered to whatever extent. The evidence is the mechanism of explanation and computation. If someone can understand anything beyond the genetic knowledge they're born with, then there is nothing, in principle, preventing them from understanding anything else, regardless of its complexity. The difference between a very simple explanation, and the most complex explanation, is the length of the string of statements that explain it. As I said before, there are of course some explanations that require some base level of memory to understand. For example, to truly understand it you must be able to hold a certain level of information in your mind at once. I grant that it's possible a person with disabilities lacks that memory requirement, but even in those people, universality is still there. They have the qualitative requirement of universality, but lack the quantitative requirement of memory. I also grant that there could be explanations that would require quantitative increases that we are incapable of in our current state.

But in both cases, we can make quantitative increases with the requisite knowledge. In fact, we already do. We use computers all the time to gain major quantitative increases in processing power (speed) and memory. We even use simple paper and pen to do this. The proof to Fermat's Last Theorem is far far too long to hold in our mind at once, and even the mathematician who crafted it had to write it out as he went along, continuously going back to previous sections to revisit his conceptual building blocks. Yet it would be foolish to say he doesn't understand it just because he can't hold the entire thing in his mind at once. In the far future, we'll be able to add more and more processing power and memory to ourselves, perhaps even more efficient algorithms, but we'll never need to (or be able to) increase our intelligence qualitatively. Universal is infinite in it's capacity to understand, and you can't add to infinity. If you can, in principle, fully understand anything, then there's no way to fully understand anything in a bigger way. Anything means anything.

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sideways t1_ir3n4js wrote

Thanks for your explanation. That makes more sense. Doesn't David Deutsch take a similar position?

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir56oy1 wrote

He definitely does. If you're interested in more of this type of view, I highly recommend his book The Beginning of Infinity.

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Professional-Song216 t1_ir3ylau wrote

You took the words right out of my mouth, any conscious Intelligence would see itself as general intelligence because of the barriers it can’t look past. It seems it would be much more likely that there are a multitude of higher levels, each with their own emergent properties.

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beachmike t1_ir9uzlv wrote

Actually, no.

The vast majority of people are NOT capable of getting a PhD in the hard sciences, mathematics, or engineering from MIT.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir9vypz wrote

The vast majority of people don't have the knowledge needed, explicit and inexplicit, nor the interest, to get a PhD at MIT. But their brains and minds are absolutely capable of learning and retaining the necessary knowledge to do so. It's absurd to think otherwise, not to mention sad.

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beachmike t1_ir9zx1j wrote

You don't know what the hell you're talking about. I went to engineering school at University of Michigan. Classes such as advanced calculus and physical chemistry are HARD, and require far more than just the willingness and motivation to learn, or a good memory. The vast majority of people ***DO NOT*** have the intelligence to do well at those classes, and go on to even more difficult graduate school classes at a place like MIT.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ira2nof wrote

The arrogance is astounding. The vast majority of people you're talking about have absolutely no interest in studying in those fields. Those that try and fail, were unable to create/learn the inexplicit knowledge required to understand everything. That does NOT mean they cannot, in principle, create/learn that requisite knowledge, merely that they failed to do so. When someone makes an error, we never assume they are doomed to forever make that error. We can correct our errors. There is absolutely no difference between a simple error correction, and an extremely large complex error correction, except for scale. If someone can understand explanations for one thing, there is nothing, in principle, stopping them from understanding anything else. You're essentially advocating for supernatural thinking. That there is some special magical thing about complex explanations that means only certain people with special intelligence can understand. That is just not true. We are universal intelligences, and given enough time, anyone can understand anything. I readily admit that some people are quicker and more efficient at understanding, whether it be because of the inexplicit knowledge they create as young children, or because their memory and processing power is higher. But taking much longer to understand something is very very different from being in principle unable to ever understand something. Unless someone is severely disabled, they are universal in their ability to understand.

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beachmike t1_irq06qy wrote

The naivete is astounding. The detachment from reality is astounding. The reality is that individuals have vastly different levels of ability and intelligence in different fields. You said "We are universal intelligences, and given enough time, anyone can understand anything." ***That's absolute nonsense*** You believe, given enough time, someone with an IQ of 85 (about 1 standard deviation below the mean) can understand Advanced Calculus or Advance Physical Chemistry. That's absurd.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_irqxkca wrote

IQ is a completely useless measure for this particular job. It measures acquired knowledge, explicit and inexplicit, memory, and processing power. Not universality. If someone is disabled to the point of lacking universality, then no, they couldn't learn Advanced Calculus. But yes, given enough time, and most importantly, actual interest, there's no reason someone couldn't learn it. The fact is, people like that have very very very little focus for things like that, because it's much more difficult for them and no fun at all. But if they for some reason became extremely interested in it and unlimited time, then yes, they could learn Advanced Calculus. There is nothing, in principle, stopping them.

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beachmike t1_irr0ks4 wrote

You're missing the forest for the trees. Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Someone with a below average IQ CANNOT do well in advanced science and math classes at MIT. It doesn't matter how much they desire to do well, study, or memorize.

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pentin0 t1_iruki8b wrote

His point is pretty simple to understand: there is no qualitative leap between the brains and minds of people who do well at MIT and the common healthy bloke. He isn't claiming that anyone could "do well" in those schools (because it would imply performing at the same level on a battery of standardized tests... which basically are a proxy for IQ testing. Since no one here is claiming that we all have the same IQ, your rebuke to his position would qualify as a strawman.

Regarding "good memory", it actually is pretty much the gist of it. It's not about having good long-term memory (the ability to "memorize" stuff) but sufficient working memory performance (the neocortex's distributed "RAM"); which has been observed to strongly correlate with IQ. To make it short, the main differences amongst humans that are relevant to the IQ distribution seem to be quantitative in nature (mostly, working memory performance, which itself is highly dependent on white matter integrity i.e. myelination of neuronal axons).

Notice that I didn't say "working memory size" because, as the research shows, these resources are scattered over such a sizeable portion of the brain that the relatively tiny differences in unit recruitment wouldn't explain much of the experimental data within the prevailing theories. So yeah, I'm talking about short-term memory encoding/decoding performance, here.

I know it's a hard pill to swallow but if you want to rely on "intelligence" to explain that phenomenon, then you'll lose your biggest opportunity to argue for qualitative factors as the main drivers of academic performance. In fact, working memory performance (which is much more straightforwardly quantitative than intelligence) is an even better predictor of academic success, especially at higher IQs (interestingly enough, the scenario that would be more relevant to this AGI/ASI debate).

Finally, since we're playing this game, I also went to an engineering school (studied AI), so don't expect your appeal to authority to work here. Let's be real about STEM classes: that shit might be "HARD" but it ain't witchcraft. It's also ironic that you used the driest and most clear-cut subjects as examples. It doesn't strengthen your point.

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beachmike t1_irv0pvu wrote

You OBVIOUSLY misunderstand the point I'm disputing. MurderByEgoDeath wrote: "Everyone CAN get a PhD from MIT and anything else. We all have that potential ability." Anyone with half a brain knows that is NOT TRUE. We DO NOT all have that potential ability. Not even close. I AM an authority on this subject because I've seen 1st hand people that were simply not smart enough to do well in undergraduate coursework at a top engineering and science university. You made several other incorrect arguments, but I'm not going to waste further time disputing them.

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Starnois t1_ir2j6a7 wrote

If you gave a monkey more processing power and memory, I don’t think that would make them more intelligent. just think of the dumbest person you know and compare their intelligence to Nikola Tesla.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir2jt93 wrote

Of course not, because a monkey doesn't have universal explanatory power. In fact, it has zero explanatory power. We're talking about a qualitative difference between us, where memory and processing power is merely quantitative. Now, it would definitely make it better than all the other monkeys, but it would still be qualitatively below us. My point is that there is nothing qualitatively above us, because universal is universal. You can't be universal plus one. So all that's left to improve is quantitative. Memory, processing power, and probably algorithmic efficiency.

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Starnois t1_ir2nld9 wrote

Explain a below average person VS Ben Franklin though. Both have universal explanatory power. Does Ben have simply better processing and memory?

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir2pxqf wrote

He may have had better processing power and memory, but that wasn't the determining factor. It just so happened that his interests happened to be what they are, and he directed his intellectual creativity towards them. Using creativity to create knowledge isn't just about explicit knowledge, which is what we know him for, but also creating inexplicit knowledge, such as improving his creative output. A really good example is Ramanujan. Well known as one of the most "innately brilliant mathematicians to exist. And yes, his processing power and memory was surely high, but it was much more about the inexplicit knowledge he created about HOW to do math. He was able to do math in ways almost of all us cannot do, but not because we inherently cannot, but because we don't have the requisite knowledge to know how.

Most importantly, none of us are born with this knowledge, we create it, and all of us have the universal ability to create knowledge. We are born with some innate knowledge, such as the knowledge of how to learn language and things of that nature. But we can overcome our birthright regardless of which way it goes. For example, we are not born with the innate knowledge to understand quantum physics, yet we are able to learn; but we are born with the innate knowledge that very high places are dangerous, yet we can learn to overcome that fear and even go so far as to jump out of airplanes for fun with the learned knowledge that a parachute will save us. Regardless of what knowledge we are born with or without, we are universal, and can create and acquire whatever knowledge we want or need. Which again, is not to say that we will, but merely that we are able to.

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Professional-Song216 t1_ir46k0r wrote

What definitive prove is there that we are truly universally intelligent?

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Jalen_1227 t1_ir4azxo wrote

I’m guessing the human brain’s ability to adapt to whatever environment we find ourselves in, including space. Hence the “universal” intelligence, the ability to comprehend anything in the universe we come across

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Professional-Song216 t1_ir4bqm9 wrote

I get where you’re coming from but there is no real prove of that. There is so much that we don’t understand and our models of what we think we understand still change fairly often. Do we really have the perspective needed to definitively say that we are universally intelligent?

I’d like to know if there’s is anything solid on this matter. It would change my perspective on AGI and ASI a lot.

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Jalen_1227 t1_ir4ceer wrote

No I definitely agree. I mean he even said that a lower qualitative intelligence wouldn’t be able to recognize a higher qualitative intelligence, which clearly means we wouldn’t even be able to recognize a higher intellectual being even if it was staring us in the face. But I also understand where he’s coming from, I highly doubt humans wouldn’t be able to recognize a smarter being which means we technically would be at the limit of universal intelligence and all we lack is the proper processing power to imagine very complex ideas which could be modified onto the human brain. We also don’t know the limits of what the human species will discover or create, and progress just keeps happening faster and faster, and with our ability to question “why”, we technically don’t have a limit to our understanding….

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Professional-Song216 t1_ir4di1k wrote

I saw a part where he said that “nothing is qualitatively above us” and was wondering how he got to that conclusion. But thanks for your input. This is definitely a great place to explore a crap ton of interesting thoughts

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir57ty4 wrote

The proof is in the fundamental mechanism of explanation and computation itself. Explanations are just strings of statements. The difference between a simple explanation and the most complex explanation you could imagine, is just the length of their string of statements. So if you can understand anything that wasn't genetically programmed into you to understand, like it is for all animals, then you can understand anything. Some people are tricked into thinking animals can do this, but all they can do is mix and match whatever subroutines they were born with, some which look like a shadow of learning, but they never actually understand anything. The fact that we can understand something as obscure as quantum physics, means we can understand outside of our genetic programming, which means we can understand anything. To think otherwise, you'd be claiming that we can follow a string of statements up to some point, and then all of a sudden it just won't make sense anymore. But we know this isn't true. The proof to Fermat's Last Theorem was so long that no human could hold its string of statements in their mind at once. Yet people who are very interested and chose to learn that type of math, can read through page by page, and by the end, they understand the proof. At no point does the length of the explanation hinder their understanding. And if one day we do get to a length that's just too long, that's just a matter of increasing memory and processing power. We'll never need a qualitative increase, in fact there just isn't one to be had.

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Professional-Song216 t1_ir7t1cz wrote

Thanks for your explanation, although I humbly disagree on some key points.

For one I think that there are varying degrees of thinking outside one’s genetic code. For example our ability to read and use symbols are derived from our ability to identify and decipher varying shapes. Bees have this ability well. I say that to say, biology and evolution isn’t cut and dry. All of our abilities to from abstractions could be a result of a mix of hard programmed processes.

All explanations and computation could be string based but I find that hard to believe. There has to be a way to determine weather the string is actually true or false maybe even varying degrees of the two. Asking questions seems to be a huge help part of the spark that drove humanity to such a high degree of productivity.

Your argument is very believable once you really think about it. However I believe it’s easy to forget that we live in somewhat of an illusion. Our perspective does not reflect what is necessarily true. Our biology provides a convenient picture of what surrounds us and there is a large possibility that it has limitations not only in perception but conception on a qualitative level.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir89guc wrote

I'll admit that we are infinitely ignorant, and endlessly fallible, and thus we can never be sure that we've reached the truth, regardless of what it is. But we do have our best explanations, and we must live and act as if those best explanations are true, because there is nothing else we can do. Epistemologies like Bayesianism are very popular today, but those never made much sense to me. We have the best most useful explanations until they are falsified, and even then they remain useful approximations, like Newton's Gravity being replaced by Einstein's. The reason Newton's is still a good approximation is because it was our best explanation at one time, and good explanations are good for a reason. They are falsifiable, and therefore testable, and they are hard to vary, and therefore fully explain the phenomena they reference. One day, Einstein's theory will also be replaced, or absorbed into Quantum theory, and one day even Quantum theory will be replaced. We will never have the final ultimate explanation, but we will always be able to create closer and closer approximations to the truth. Even if we did discover the final ultimate theory of something, we would never know it to be so.

This theory of the mind and universal explanation may indeed be wrong, but I would strongly suggest it is our current best explanation, and should be acted on as such. It can easily be falsified by discovering a completely new mode of explanation that is out of our reach, or by building an ASI that has a qualitative gain on us. I hope I'm alive for that because it'll be a very exciting time! :)

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LeCodex t1_irupspb wrote

I'm glad to see another fan of Popper and Deutsch in the midst of this sea of arrogantly confident errors about intelligence, AGI, knowledge,...

Seeing so many people here parrot the kind of misconceptions that are so prevalent in the field, I'm beginning to really understand Deutsch's arguments in his "Why has AGI not been created yet?" video at a deeper level.

It's as if the people supposedly interested in bringing about AGI, had decided to choose one of the worst epistemological framework they could find to get there (certainly worse than Popper's epistemology), then proceeded to lock themselves out of any error-correction mechanism in that regard. Now they're all wondering why their AIs can't generalize well, can't learn in an open-ended fashion, struggle with curiosity, suck at abductive reasoning... and for that matter, even deduction (since finding good proofs requires a serious dose of abduction), are data hungry...

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Professional-Song216 t1_irc2vmd wrote

Absolutely the concussion is not clear as of yet, I am exited as well. The next chapter in human history with be grand none the less.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_irc4hfk wrote

I definitely agree there. Part of this whole philosophy is that all problems can be solved, because anything that is physically possible, can be achieved with the requisite knowledge. So all suffering in the world, is merely the result of a lack of knowledge, and since we are all knowledge creators, there is no reason to be pessimistic. Optimism is not an attitude or a state of mind, it's a claim about reality. We live in a universe where problems can be solved with the requisite knowledge, and we exist as entities who can create that knowledge! Thus our reality is intrinsically optimistic! :)

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