Submitted by MistWeaver80 t3_10m5pqz in science
Tracks for what I understand.
Maturity at 18-20 is really telling in this sense in my experience - some grew up much to early and it's so clear in environments such as first year uni / college. Working alongside older people who still haven't had that growth
Tracks for my experience
(anecdotal, remove if not allowed). My Neurologist said it's possible for childhood abuse to show up in MRIs even through middle age. I read a study a few yrs ago about altered brain chemistry and suppressed immune response development in children who experienced even emotional and verbal abuse. The more research the better.
We've known this for at least 15 years. Prolonged early childhood abuse (occurring before the age of seven) can cause changes in the brain at the epigenetic level. It often presents as comorbid developmental disorders. I remember seeing a temporary exhibit about it in the museum of natural history in Manhattan sometime in 2006/2007.
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repeated abuse (physical/sexual/psychological) pre-16 falls under complex ptsd
suffered almost my entire life it.
the change in people who are afflicted with it is incalculable :(
so yea. ive known for decades my brain is fucked.
but at least i went to a doctor and got help back in the end of 2021
quite a bit of data also suggests neglect, physical/sexual abuse can lead to adhd and other learning disabilities.
cptsd, ptsd, bp2, mdd, adhd (full host of learning disabilities), asperger's. several tbi's. sexual abuse. physical abuse. physical trauma.
words cannot express how i hate not being a normal person my entire life
Been on r/cptsd a lot today. If you haven't joined I recommend it. I find it helpful since cPTSD is just so isolating
Wait so if you're abused after the age of 15 you're fine then?
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I didn't know research went back that far. When I looked for studies maybe 4-5 yrs ago, I could only find one or two articles that were recent then.
Does bullying at school/friends considered abuse as well?
I've read somewhere it manifests similarly to Traumatic Brain Injury - not surprising really, if you think about it.
Do you remember exactly what changes it makes? Because "prolonged early childhood abuse" may as well be my middle name.
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I've heard the mods are themselves abusers who infiltrated the sub to find victims.
My condolences. I, too have not being normal - and being ruthlessly punished for not being normal my entire life, which caused my CPTSD.
Yes. More than half my Complex PTSD is due to bullying to the point of terrorism and the social isolation that comes with that.
It's a family name
had an abusive father, not sure f i have faith in my own life
Imagine having both? It’s a fun double whammy.
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… due to a heightened awareness of their environment, due to being exposed to high levels of threat at an early age.
This line resonates.
I might be sharing something you already know, but maybe you or other people reading this thread don’t know about this, but have you ever looked into DBT (Dialectical Behavioral Therapy)? It can be helpful for a lot of things but is really optimized for Borderline Personality Disorder, PTSD, and Complex PTSD.
It requires a bit more time investment than other kinds of therapy (usually a 1 hour session a week plus a 1-2 hour separate segment called skills training, which a lot of places offer virtually nowadays) but it’s not too crazy of a time investment. There’s been a lot of research verifying that DBT is really effective, especially for these sorts of things. Basically a while back, there was CBT (a pretty common type of therapy), but they found it fell short for people with Borderline Personality Disorder and Complex PTSD especially, so they really reworked it over a number of years and developed a more optimized approach for these things
I just wanted to share this since with therapy, you tend to see a bunch of acronyms and styles of therapy and it’s easy to get lost and overwhelmed with what they all mean, but for Borderline Personality Disorder and Complex PTSD, it’s very much the gold standard for efficacy. Granted, finding a therapist you actually mesh with and like is still very important, but it’ll be very worth looking into “Full Model DBT”
I’ve learned a lot about this as someone close to me has struggled with the sorts of things it’s especially good for, and I hope maybe this can help point you or someone else reading this some help
What about 18 year olds getting blown up in war? I wonder what effect that has if they survive. Aside from the combat wounds I mean.
Oof. My condolences.
Thanks. I mean that.
i was beaten as a child for years. can someone please summarize this study and tell me what it did to me?
Is there any link between untreated CPTSD and being someone who purposely seeks out risk? Like applying for the most austere deployments or feeling at home while under theat?
Well that explains it
I wonder why there's no discussion of ADHD in the paper. Seems relevant.
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‘The Body Keeps the Score” It’s a book someone wrote. Can’t recall the author.
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‘The Body Keeps the Score’ by Bessel Van Der Kolk. I read this book. It’s really good and (as a traumatised kid), I felt really sad and heavy when I realised how our minds and bodies absorb our experiences and respond accordingly, and in ways many of us don’t realise or understand.
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I’m pretty sure this had already been established.
But whatever gets you grant money, I guess?
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I recently read Robert Sapolsky’s great book on stress, ‘Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers’, originally published back in ‘94. One of the things he talks about is stress and trauma in childhood and the physiological changes it can cause, some permanent and some reversible if dealt with in time. Some of this had been known for decades when he wrote the book, and he does a great job going through the research and the history of its discovery. Can really recommend it to anyone who hasn’t read it.
I was a bouncer a long time ago and I would home in on problem people quickly and couldn't figure out why my co-workers seemed so clueless about the obvious signs.
And as a C-PTSD and ADHD fellow struggler, I can highly recommend EMDR. A painful but very effective intervention in my experience, alongside DBT.
It's nice to see that science catches up to what most trauma survivors already know.
No but less likely to have observable changes at the brain level / genetic level and more likely to live a normal life
Under rated comment.
A friend recently recommended EMDR to me since I've found talk therapy often makes my depression worse as negative memories continue to hold the same potency for me no matter how long it's been or how much I've talked about it. I haven't had a chance to do it since I don't feel like I have the support system in place yet, but I do hope it's more effective for me.
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DBT can help a lot with symptom management, and is a good starter therapy for CPTSD for this reason, but EMDR and inner child or schema therapy will do a better job of addressing the root cause of a person's symptoms.
It's unfortunate that there isn't a one size fits all treatment for stuff like this, but at least stuff like inner child therapy, DBT distress tolerance skills and journaling are all pretty helpful for me at this point. I'll take what I can get. (I went through DBT like 8-9 years ago, but I started seeing a trauma therapist in October.).
I personally found the ABCDE theory from Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy to be helpful as well. The basic idea is that a lot of mental health issues, grief, trauma, etc are caused by our reaction to or our beliefs about certain events in our lives; so if we change how we see those events, we can eliminate the problem. It's at least been very helpful for me in terms of reframing stuff that's happening now, and putting it into perspective.
Emotional accounting can also be helpful, but for some reason journaling has taken over this skill for me. I was never really able to make it the consistent habit that I wanted it to be.
Disclaimer: I am far from healed, or even doing well, but I'm doing better and this stuff is a large part of why.
Edit: I also went through a CBT workbook for PTSD, and that also helped a lot with symptom management.
Edit #2: to clarify about DBT -- it's helped my self esteem and self image a lot, but it has never been able to do much once I get triggered and that switch flips in my brain that takes me back to my past. I still use DBT techniques for symptom management, but they're not my only tools.
I think it helped me a lot, but what's worked has been kind of ingrained into my behavior, and what hasn't worked has been dropped. I still think that it isn't going to be as good as other therapeutic modalities to treat the core issues behind CPTSD, but your mileage may vary.
If someone has CPTSD, they should see a trauma therapist; and someone specializing in trauma will be able to help you go in the right direction. For a lot of people, DBT is at least a pretty darn good start. It is 3:30 AM and I am probably contradicting my own earlier points.
Could growing up in a household of constant alcohol-fuelled arguing that teeters on the edge of violence, between two parents, constitute as child abuse? Surely witnessing that can have long lasting impacts on a child.
Pretty sure they've shown that abuse doesn't cause ADHD.
Got a source on ADHD being caused by abuse? Because I've only ever found studies showing that it's not due to abuse.
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The one concrete thing I remember is that it affects the reabsorption of cortisol. I know that it's also casually linked to developmental disorders like ADHD and ASD as well as behavioral disorders, but I don't remember how exactly those are caused. Something to do with how input is processed during a strong sympathetic nervous response.
Yes, that absolutely counts, especially if there was no childhood resolution (e.g. therapy, removal to a safe home.)
Yes. Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) include substance abuse in the home.
Yes, for some. Others become hypervigilant and go to great lengths to avoid risk.
Well dang. We're different, and that's that. The purpose of studies like this isn't emotional reassurance, but it's good for me in that way. It's good to be reminded that there's a reason for some of how I am.
I've read a few articles about the amygdala and HPA axis becoming overactive. There may also be effects in the peripheral nervous system associated with autonomic regulation, although the polyvagal hypothesis is somewhat controversial.
Huh… that makes a lot of sense now…
I really feel as though my ADHD started off as minor and genetic, but manifested itself more and more until I got diagnosed in middle school, and now I’m a depressed ball of anxiety and stress with a dash of PTSD (haven’t had a flashback in almost a year! Progress!)And I still can’t stand people being behind me at all…
It works on a deep level and faster than talk therapy. I think you are very wise to ensure you have a support system in place. After EMDR sessions, I often felt very raw and emotional, and it was tough to deal with that alone. But I did and it certainly sorted out the core issues. Go well, OP.
Great book. Author got fired for abusing employees though. Despite researching trauma, he didn’t mind causing some.
“words cannot express how i hate not being a normal person my entire life”
The normal coping skills you’ve developed are to abnormal situations in your life. Not the other way around. You’re surviving and you’re doing a damn good job at it.
Yup. I left my abusive household in the mid-90s and to this day I am hyper vigilant everywhere I go, always on the lookout for heavy footsteps or other signs of "incoming". I've finally made progress on not apologizing for everything I do, to include just existing. I also feel the need to make sure everyone around me is comfortable at all times.
My egg donor really did a number on me.
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For real right.
Who is they? Honest question. I've been doing research on links between generational trauma and anxiety/developmental/learning disorders. Every part of a mother's environment and internal state effects their children. Sure, abuse doesn't cause ADHD. Depending on who and when the trauma is inflicted but it sure seems like it can contribute to it on a biological level.
Fascists create fascists.
Don't remember exact studies. I've just googled it a few times and everything I find says "ADHD not caused by abuse".
Even anecdotally, I know plenty of people who dealt with abuse, but don't have ADHD. Anxiety and depression but not ADHD.
ADHD is an executive function disorder which also is what happens when people are under extreme stress. It's why ADHD is often mistaken for anxiety etc.
A true expert
Read The Body Never Lies by Alice Miller instead. I think The Body Keeps the Score guy stole her research too.
Indeed it is.
Or CSB and verbal abuse. Yet, my parents just don’t understand why I might have coping mechanism problems. My condolences as well.
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I'm definitely all ears for sources on this. As far as I know there is a clear two way association between ACE and ADHD in longitudinal studies, but the size of an eventual causal effect is still very much unknown. The symptom overlap with childhood trauma is big and ADHD is a diagnosis that's defined symptomatically.
Do you have any references that abuse can't cause ADHD?
My kids showed signs of ADHD super young, and we were the "don't spank kids it's abuse" type family. Our parents kept telling us to spank them, leave them alone at night to sleep etc.
We weren't perfect but definitely not abusive.
Edit:
ADHD is often REPORTED as ADHD by parents, but misdiagnosed.
ADHD is executive function disorder, similar to high levels of stress. That's why parents confuse stressed kids with ADHD kids.
A causal effect doesn't need to be 100% to still exist. Not saying it is causal, just don't think it's fully known yet.
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ADHD misreported by parents. Parents think it's ADHD, when it's ACE trauma etc.
I'm 65 and recently my doc prescribed nortriptyline for nerve pain and irritable bowel resulting from diabetes, and she thought, PTSD from childhood trauma.
It woks some in those areas but for the first time in 50 years I'm not plagued by constant adrenaline dumps. I've never felt depressed but have always felt physically anxious. On top of the pressure to be cool and in control, feeling ready for fight/flight underneath is hard. And yes I did have a somewhat rough paper route.
Anyway, if you feel that unwelcome adrenaline dump regularly and in totally inappropriate situations, perhaps you should talk to your MD. I feel no emotional side effects other than a much appreciated calm and freedom from the unwelcome near-panic. I take 50mg which I understand is a low dose.
I've never experienced that. Honestly I rarely even see mods comment.
I think I have both, a lot of days aren't fun anymore along with drug use and alcohol abuse I think was caused by it.
Ngl, I experienced multiple levels of trauma as a child and reading that it affects me as an adult is like reading that milk comes from cows.
This must seem like an 18 carat run of bad luck, but really the game was rigged from the start.
It is.. but this latest generation of child raisers seems to have broken the cycle more than any other generation, of course kids are still abused and that is very unfortunate but parents these days do seem a lot more capable of showing love to their children. Boomer parents weren’t so much. They weren’t home ever, they were pretty much done with us as soon as we turned 18 and hardly any of them saved for college…
Do you also find yourself weirdly comfortable now as an adult when you find yourself in threatening situations while everyone else is freaking out?
I was abused hard-core and have trouble with perception big time.
a lot opf people with adhd were abused as kids. mostly narcissistic abuse like gaslighting and yelling at them for no reason. probably do it to blame their stress or inefficiency on their kids.
We can do it!
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Same, hope you're well. Take care.
It's not fun (I have both cptsd and tbi)
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Yep. I definitely feel strangely comfortable in insane situations. When I worked IT for a big bank in NYC they used to have me give really bad news to people (like, we lost five years of your work due to a stupid tech) because when people were super upset, I calmed down.
EMDR was a literal life saver for me. It sucked ass, it was difficult, draining, and definitely hard to relive past experiences. But I can do normal everyday things now that were difficult before because of triggers.
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This article title literally states that abuse causes attention (and perception processing) altered brain functions.
They rapidly ban commenters who call them out on their manipulation. "Rarely even seeing" is the point.
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never lies sounds more apt than "keeps score" anyways
EMDR saved my life, I have cptsd and ocd.
I'm gonna ask my psychiatrist about whether my insurance will pay for me to get EMDR and see my current therapist at the same time (since I'd have to see someone else for EMDR). Fingers crossed, I guess.
I'm pretty much open to anything that will realistically help, not that EMDR is anything crazy. I like that it's basically a way to take advantage of loopholes in how your brain works. It's neat.
I’m the one called to deal with overly aggressive customers, drug use and other outrageous behavior at the shop I run. The unofficial bouncer, if you will. I’m a 5 ft 4/125 lbs “cute” pipsqueak and none of that makes me even the slightest bit nervous.
The best part is it’s all invisible so no one believes it’s really an issue. Hooray!
Makes sense the last bit about people who are allergic to everything. They appear to be homeschooled in my experience.
Dont stupid researchers understand the gravity of posting such nonsense? Youre giving people, who may not have any issue, something to worry about.
Oh, they try and have their cake and eat it too. If they can’t outsmart you you’re not injured, if you are injured you’re the one that hurt them, they’ve never done anything to deserve that, no wait that was supposed to trick you into stopping you’re hurting of Nazis like me OWWIE!
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The body remembers - Rothschild
Yes risk seeking behaviors is one of the possible symptoms of PTSD
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Yes, Hypervigilence. That's not ADHD.
My brain is a potato according to this study. Correlation does not mean causation. Also can, but not definitively. Research is useful, but the stigma towards foster youth is already bad enough.
i accidentally posted links to a comment above
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https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24750573.2017.1367551
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161011130010.htm
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this is primarily because of how ptsd/cptsd will rewire the brain. so that someone who did not actually begin life in early development as lear4ning disabled, ocd or adhd, ends up being stuck as neurodivergent due to how the ptsd rips the brain apart
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a couple good examples of this. in the season 3 of the boys, mothers milk talks about his bipolar and ocd and trauma because of how someone threw a car through his house and killed his family. in doing this, he ends up having to do an ocd ritual in order to maintain and facilitate that actionary. because he believes if he did this, things would have been different
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the legend of korra also touches on this when amon terrorizes korra. her trauma responses are many, and even by the end of the series she is NOT well, nor who she used to be.
that hyperarousal and hypervigilance, mixed with shame and guilt bring many people to their knees mentally
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the book that was adapted to hulu for catch 22 by joseph heller also offers several classic examples of how people change with ptsd.
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the show mash, is also a good study on ptsd across a broad spectrum of characters. korra, catch 22, and mash are both two of my comfort shows because of the ways they each tackle ptsd in characters
Well, from what I have read about ADHD it’s mostly genetic but also brain trauma (child abuse).
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-adhd/causes/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6864256/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6013278/
ADHD effects executive functioning which is directly related to how someone deals with stress or emotional regulation. So, a parent with ADHD may be more prone to spanking their kids or yelling at their kids- thus abuse may be more prevalent in their family history and “normalized.” And as ADHD parents tend to have ADHD kids, the emotional regulation issues create a vicious cycle.
This being said: a lot of the articles I have read don’t argue causative (mostly correlative) because of the genetic factors at play.
Recently I’ve been thinking that a lot of my parents behavior and addictions are all symptoms of adhd. So there is that.
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Except plenty of people have ADHD without those issues. Itoesbt make sense. If trauma caused it, they'd have been shouting it from the rooftops decades ago.
trauma makes the predisposition to it come forth
genetics still plays an important role itself, due to gene expression.
just like gestational exposure of air pollution to a mother can increase the odds of autism spectrum disorder.
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Causes of ADHD
Brain injury.
Exposure to environmental risks (e.g., lead) during pregnancy or at a young age.
Alcohol and tobacco use during pregnancy.
Premature delivery.
Low birth weight.
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https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/facts.html
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lemme tell you traumatic brain injuries suck
had one at 9, 17, 20 and a huge one at 37 (the perils of being a lumberjack. no one gets out of that industry unscarred unless they only work one day).
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Prenatal exposure to polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, or PAH, a component of air pollution, raises the odds of behavior problems associated with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, at age 9, according to researchers at the Columbia Center for Children's Environmental Health at the Mailman School of ...Nov 5, 2014
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https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/adhd-air-pollution-link
boys tend to have the greatest risk of inheriting or ending up adhd
air pollution is liable to be one of the main causes of why so many more kids are being born neurodivergent
never mind all the chemicals in the water, especially here in illinois with the coal ash and pesticides/herbicides which end up back in the water supplies (this is also why kidney disease is the largest death machine in illinois)
brains are sensitive organs. it does not take much to mess them up
and ptsd/cptsd/neglect/sexual abuse/physical abuse can mess up a young mind like a grenade will mess up an apple tree
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TBI, CPTSD and combat PTSD. The trifecta my friend.
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