KiwasiGames t1_j1otprq wrote
I think we should tread carefully on this.
One of the huge advantages of oil extraction is that it has a low land use foot print. Using oil for chemical feedstocks generally doesn’t pump out much carbon (beyond energy use). So at this stage it still seems to be sensible.
On the other hand plant based feedstocks suck up a lot of land. This is land that can no longer be used for food production. Farmers switching land to biofuel was implicated as one of the causes of the 2008/09 food price crisis (although not the major one).
From a technical point it’s generally straight forward to dial up these processes on the factory side. But the land use side is hard to get around.
pattydickens t1_j1owex0 wrote
Pests become a factor as well. A lot of automobile manufacturers switched to plant based wiring insulation, and now mice and other rodents are known to destroy the wiring because of the materials being food essentially. I'm not pro petroleum by any means, but stuff like this seems to get overlooked until it's a big problem.
zz502chevyII t1_j1ox6tp wrote
As an automotive repair shop owner, I hate this new wiring. Mice climb into spaces that we can't reach and chew up wires.
Likesdirt t1_j1p0ei8 wrote
These plant based solvents are already available as byproducts from paper mills and orange juice factories. Furfural comes from oats and was used as rocket fuel for a moment in the 1950's.
But none of these compounds is present as more than a trace in their sources. There won't be any orange trees planted as a peel oil crop with hopes for a vigorous juice market, or orange peel recycling bins.
-businessskeleton- t1_j1owz8t wrote
Would this be where we would need to create factory farming inside large facilities? Or is the scale so big, even this isn't viable?
Likesdirt t1_j1oy2ak wrote
Factory greenhouses are huge energy consumers, and really only viable to make luxury products. Strawberries and greens, not oats and trees.
IceFinancialaJake t1_j1pjddr wrote
Mate. There is so much land going fallow because the big corporations haven't got them locked up or isn't funny. Miles and miles of farmland locked away behind dubious deals and crap luck. Farmers being paid to dump their produce because it's cheaper/better for the supermarkets budget.
Land use isn't a non-problem. It's just not a show stopper. It's a matter of getting it going and showing theirs money to be made and bam your head will spin at how fast the mega corps get it off the ground
polymernerd t1_j1qlpg6 wrote
Polymer Chemist here with an interest in greener chemistry. I can kinda talk on this. I did contract R&D for a company looking to develop a plant based feedstock for polyurethanes, and I can share some insights.
You are absolutely correct: turning arable land from food to chemical production can cause issues. But then there are so many inefficiencies in our food chain. The USDA estimates that 30-40% of all food produced gets wasted. There have been plans/talks of using more vertical farming and hydroponics to reduce the physical footprint, and some vertical farms are in development.
There has also been a big push in my field to use more microorganisms to produce chemicals and polymers. These bio reactors take up significantly less space than traditional farming, and there has been success in modifying bacterial to make small molecules we produce from petroleum refining.
Someone else mentioned that there are issues with these various terpenes have low volatility, which is also true. I would mention that they may not be the best solvents for everything, they can absolutely replace petroleum based chemicals in other applications. Think as to how many cleaners have some variation of “Citrus Powered” in their marketing, and they work better than traditional solvents.
I feel that as a public, we assume that a new technology will replace all of the old. That is not necessarily the case. We now have more options for solving a problem, and some of these solutions may involve lower energy consumption.
Pascalwb t1_j1plq3y wrote
yea, this biofuel stuff etc. wastes so much land and resources. We already have problem with growing food.
Glasnerven t1_j1poxtj wrote
Not so much with growing it, as with distributing it. We have a lot of food waste, and a noticeable amount of farmland going to growing foods that can be sold to the rich for higher profits instead of fed to the poor to keep them fed.
TheIncarnated t1_j1q0enr wrote
But we also have better ways of growing food. Vertical farming is a thing. With grow lights and everything. You can seal the grow rooms off from pests and more but no one is talking about that.
Hydroponics is a solution here and can be upscaled for manufacturing.
Also, we don't have a food problem. We have a distribution problem. The world makes 3x over the food the entire world needs. But there are some bad crop yields here and there as well.
Chef_Chantier t1_j1poz3l wrote
We can always use waste ressources, like eucalyptus oil that would be left as waste from the paper pulp industry (eucalyptus is a widely used plant for paper pulp, especially in southern europe where it has completely taken over portuguese tree plantations), or limonene from the citrus juice industry. Not saying it would be enough to replace all use of petroleum-based solvents, but it's a start.
berationalhereplz t1_j1roqnq wrote
The percentage of these compounds by mass of the plant is usually very very small, as it is, they are extremely expensive (maybe ~100-1000 times more expensive) to purchase. So to make it economical you would need tons and tons of land and tons and tons of water.
Chef_Chantier t1_j1s5t1l wrote
they're not that expensive. limonene is sold by the quart online, and it's more expensive than white spirits, but totally reasonable price for hobbyists or domestic uses.
theregoesanother t1_j1pt6xx wrote
Until we can find huge underground caverns to build it...
danielravennest t1_j1qi2zb wrote
> On the other hand plant based feedstocks suck up a lot of land.
Seaweed. Already grown on a 35 million ton per year basis.
[deleted] t1_j1ploix wrote
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[deleted] t1_j1pnzqo wrote
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Staerebu t1_j1pt3st wrote
It's already possible to synthesise crude oil with CO2, hydrogen from an electrolyser and power from a solar plant 1,000 miles away.
It's just not as cheap as oil from wells and shale.
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