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I’m going to have to read the article in nature, but this seems very interesting.

I worked for one of the companies working on the mRNA vaccine at the height of COVID. I was and am very pro vaccine but I do know people that had adverse redactions.

I do hope that alternative treatments will become more readily available to those that are not good candidates for vaccination.

I cannot take moderna. No one will believe me.

1st shot phizer- minor reactions that you'd expect 2nd shot moderna- incapacitated for 2 days 3rd shot: moderna- even worse than the last shot. Drank soup lying down. The pain was torture. Lasted 48 hours 4th shot : phizer- minor symptoms that you'd expect

I will never again take moderna. It's not worth it. After experiencing it I changed my view on people refusing vaccines due to reactions.

It’s ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) aka Ursodiol.

Many other brand names too, but it’s cheap therefore will not likely justify commercialization for an additional labeled indication like Covid.

Wow my family member went off of Actigall right before Covid hit. Maybe we should talk to his GI about this

Yeah, interestingly Moderna is suing phizer/BioNTech over the delivery mechanism. Allegedly they are very similar/same from what the news article claimed.

I’m sorry you went through that. The vaccine kicked my butt, but I’m glad I got it. Covid kicked my butt even after the vaccine. It could have been worse. My wife and kids we’re vaccinated and covid was like a weak cold for them. No issues.

All of that data is public

Moderna put me down too. It was wild. I barely remember it.

Since the 1950s, it's been produced synthetically, but that hasn't stopped some cultures from going to the original source: bear (urso) bile.

Why was your second shot different from your first?

My first two shots were Pfizer, then I got the Pfizer booster, and this year I got the Moderna bivalent. The worst reaction I got from any of the shots was shot #2, the effects were easily three times worse than the other three shots, and the effects lasted for about two days.

It doesn't work in vivo. My wife has been on urso for decades AND was vaxxed as much as she legally could have been and still got a fairly strong symptomatic COVID.

I'm sure if I could access the original paper it probably says "in a mouse model".

Mine has been on it for decades, it offered no protection. I'm glad for the hamsters it worked on, but hamsters are not humans.

Irresponsible article. Not only is it speculative, but now people who depend on it for survival will have to deal with "supply chain" issues.

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In my country that's how it was rolled out for my age category. During the second and third boosters phizer- was reserved for seniors. I skipped a booster during the summer because of side effects and moderna being the only available vaccine. In the fall the new phizer vaccine came out and was made available to my age category.

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The paper is available for anyone to read here, worth noting it has not been edited yet as they rushed to make it open access prior to formal publication.

Taking a quick read through it does sound interesting as it was significant in not just hamsters, but in retrospective cohorts too. But the authors do acknowledge people shouldn't start using this for prophylaxis until prospective clinical trials are performed.

I think it was moderna that I took, but I had a severe reaction on the first dose and way too scared to get a second one.

You should still get vax though, especially if it's only a minor inconvenience.

Same here, I've had Pfizer for all 4 (2 original, 2 boosters now) and then second one had me down for the count.

I believe you should get vaccinated as well. My reaction was extreme. Nerve pain so fierce that I could not sit or stand. Every part of me hurt. It hurt to lay perfectly still in my bed. I was so sick. It was awful. For 48 hours I was a soaked through and couldn't move. I couldn't eat, except to sip broth, with assistance and using a straw. Never in my life have I been so weak and in so much pain. The migraine was unreal. Nope. If phizer hadn't been made available I would have also skipped my fall booster. I mask and take precautions. We haven't caught covid once. Luckily phizer came out and I decided to try it. Now I know for sure. There's something with moderna that makes me sick. Hopefully I will continue to have access to phizer

Unless it is also used to treat worms in horses or other fungal infections in horses or any other farm animal parasitic infection, not interested.

I've been on urso for almost 18 years. Covid kicked my ass hard. I still get a smokers cough when i get any bit sick.

For whole organisms, it was hamsters. But they also demonstrated it in human organs, and better COVID outcomes among humans like your wife already taking it for other reasons. There's no way to know what her individual reaction to the virus would have been if she wasn't on the medication.

It's not a full double blind trial yet, but it's a lot more steps done than just rodents.

I don't agree that it is irresponsible. If the drug has this unexpected beneficial effect it's important to publish the finding so more research can be done or production increased. Also the article was fairly straightforward about the results, discussing the theory, tests done in hamsters, human organs, and a natural experiment of people already taking the drug. What would be irresponsible would be folks rushing out to get the drug before a more thorough study, but that's the responsibility of the reader I suppose.

Probability of prevention was in the 20-50% range according to the paper. Nothing is 100% perfect, and individual anecdotes don’t supersede careful experimentation.

The paper is open access so click the PDF link and read it.

Which you can’t assume readers will be responsible with this information. Therefore, an irresponsible article.

Ya, look at these jerks trying to find solutions for Covid. So irresponsible.

You’re right that it likely won’t get enough testing needed for this to be made an on-label use, but doctors prescribe off label all the time.

Doctors still need to prescribe it, which they aren’t going to do strictly on a patient saying they read an article about it

The second shot is the one that is supposed to be worse. Everyone reacts differently, but it may have been the order of the shots, and not the brand.

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Were any of your family hospitalized due to c-19 though?

Alcoholics with covid rejoice !

Oh great, now we'll have to deal with people taking liver medicine to treat covid. It's like those people taking horse medicine to treat covid. Just get the vaccine people, keep it simple. Granted it won't keep you from getting it and spreading it, but I keep seeing commercials that say it's the best way to deal with the infection, so I'm gonna go with that, and also there are some places that will pay you to get the boosters, either with cash or gift cards.

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I cannot take vaccines. I have an autoimmune reaction to something they use in vaccine. It has been impossible to test for what it is because I cannot get ingredient disclosure.

Must have to do with stability. The basic delivery mechanism is not uncommon for new mRNA treatments. One of several. Lipid stabilization, which lets it enter cells by just merging with cell walls, which are also lipid, and dumping the mRNA inside. As the mRNA doesn't need to go any further in the cell, that's all that's needed.

Some more complicated ones have several components to navigate each part of the delivery mechanism.

Everyone is posting negative stuff, I've had 4 Moderna shots with nothing more than a slightly shore shoulder for 24 hours maybe,. Pretty sure this is the norm.

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Sounds like the fate of sabibuzilin the FDA advisory thinks Covid is over.

All information is dangerous. Can't just silence everything because some fruit cake will take it the wrong way.

What would that prove? I don't know a single person who was hospitalized from COVID.

What’s super interesting is that all my shots have been Moderna and they’ve been increasingly more and more gentle for every subsequent shot. The first one I felt kinda crappy for about a week, had some significant soreness in that arm and swollen lymph nodes. Each one after that had fewer side effects from the shot before. I haven’t had a Pfizer one so I can’t say if it’s brand specific or not, but my mom got Pfizer and was fine.

It’s so weird how differently people can react to the same meds.

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Moderna uses a mRNA concentration that is 3 times that of pfizer, most likely that is the reason for the difference in reaction

And often times insurance won't cover off label prescriptions

I'll let my ICU COVID patients know that your life is doing swell.

It's not the people who have genuine reasons for not taking a vaccine that worry me.

I’ll probably get banned for saying this, but I’m so curious to the people that say covid was bad for them and it would have been worse if they weren’t vaccinated if that would actually be true. I hear this so often. Maybe the vaccine didn’t actually have the impact it was supposed to. No way to really know but

Pay you to get boosters?? What’s the catch…

And that's why you have to destroy the gallbladder of any bear you hunt in my area. No killing bears for bile.

US big pharma checks in. “We‘ll sell that for $999 a dose to the US public. Bc we can.”

Wait shouldn’t we call this bear paste like they did with ivermectin and ridicule anyone trying to do more research?!? I thought we only want brand new expensive “vaccines” that they (the people making billions off of them) know don’t work? Interesting..

Indeed! I believe the narrative was that Pfizer/BioNTech tried out 3 or maybe 4 mechanisms in clinical trials and ultimately went with the one patented by Moderna.

I assume they utilized different adjuvants and strengths.

Same. First shot of Moderna I got chills on the first night and shoulder pain (similar to getting a flu shot). 2nd shot, my lymph node on my arm (injection side) swelled up (which is to be expected) and body aches (which is something I sometimes get from flu shots in the past). I've had the 2nd booster and the Moderna bivalent booster recently and the side effects not as bad anymore (I feel it more compared to the flu shots, but they last for at least a day).

The harder the expected vaccine side effects hit you means it's actually working.

Moderna is also twice the dosage as Pfizer's vaccine and their effectiveness last longer than Pfizer.

Possibly. But if one brand is known to have reactions and the other is fine, I'd choose the one I haven't had reactions to.

I'm vaccinated for everything I'm supposed to be vaccinated for and I have never experienced a reaction like this. Moderna is the only vaccine to affect me like this. The tetanus vaccine I also had a strong reaction to but nothing like moderna

I had the same reaction as you for Moderna as well (all 4 shots).

The intense reactions from the initial shots means that our bodies were severely lacking in defending itself from the virus. That means the vaccine is working as intended.

Now we have less intense reactions with subsequent shots because our body is entering what they call a "goldilocks" zone. We're revved up for defending itself from the virus and it just needed a few updated tweaks.

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I suspect that being the issue. Whatever it is, there's something.

I'm very sensitive to medications so that wouldn't surprise me.

I'm going with unlikely. I have a rare liver disease called PSC and take Ursodiol daily in borderline unsafe, high doses greater than what 99.9999% of the world would take. I have had covid and it was quite serious.

The effect of UDCA likely has nothing to do with Covid severity as it simply acts as a bile thinner.

Sadly we can't really tell the difference. I know some antivax ppl who were forced to get the first shot because of employment and swore they had bad reactions. .... problem is I suspect they are lying and can't prove it.

It's frustrating because that is a big part of the reason my doctor gave me such a hard time. I begged during the summer for phizer but it was refused because of guidelines. I would have gotten my booster in July if they'd have given me phizer. I was fortunate I didn't catch covid. I just got vaccinated this past month.

You have your answer from your snide remark/ question.

Yes there is a way to know. It’s called the scientific method. The original lineage of CoV2 was extremely bad. Our immune systems were not able to mount a sufficient response without significant viral load. The vaccine saved hundreds of thousands of lives and prevented serious illness in millions. There’s a significant disinformation campaign out to revise history and discredit the vaccines. https://www.factcheck.org/2022/08/scicheck-widespread-claims-misrepresent-effectiveness-of-covid-19-vaccines/

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891

>Which you can’t assume readers will be responsible with this information. Therefore, an irresponsible article.

"Lay people cannot be trusted with information. They are too stupid to think for themselves and need to be told what to think."

What an anti-scientific take. Do better.

You're assuming a dose-dependent effect. There is also no way to extract the effect of the medication in your individual case. You have literally no idea what impact it had.

Would explain why my alcoholic boss seems completely immune despite many direct exposures.

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Big up to another PSC-er.

Just make sure there isn’t a animal version you can buy at tractor supply so the QMAGA+ group won’t be posting about it.

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That’s what all of US healthcare is. “I saw an ad for this medicine you think I should take it?”

No there’s no reason to rush out an under researched article. Science needs to do better.

Is the hamster de-wormer going to be the new horse de-wormer in the press?

It’s hamster paste apparently too. So you get some choice in how you ridicule people. Or do we not do that anymore?

you're not gonna believe me but my whole family, mother father and brother, have never been vax'd and all got the Alpha version and fought it off fine.

As long as you’re wrong in the right way you get to pretend it’s all harmless and no accountability - if you’re right in the wrong way- you lose your job, you get attacked and ridiculed by the mob, you get labeled a science denier, anti vaxer, right wing, fascist, etc.. lotta people trying to pretend they didn’t get exposed as the very thing they pretend to be against (at the top of their lungs) these last couple years.. amazing to see first hand.

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

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I had covid twice before vaccines were available and it was generally mild... I continued working - from home - and even was able to workout most of the time, though I definitely had some trouble catching my breath.

Just because your family and I had no trouble from covid doesn't dismiss the huge numbers of people that did, and it's that massive impact world-wide that qualified it as a health emergency. My daughter worked in ICUs around the country during covid. She shared the awful despair she saw daily. Places were overwhelmed and PPE, staff, bed and equipment shortages made the suffering worse, as did coworkers and colleagues getting sick and turning into patients. Yeah... my experience was mild and it was for many, but that doesn't change the fact that millions died world-wide.

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The scientists are trying to find solutions for Covid. The reporters presenting a preliminary in-vitro study as a potential treatment using a headline that they absolutely know will stir up anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorists, because it will get them more attention (very similar to the whole Ivermectin debacle), is irresponsible.

You destroy the gallbladder so scientists don't scurry out from behind the rocks a d trees to harvest the medicine?

No, there was a big problem with bears being poached for their gallbladders, so they made it illegal to possess them. You're also not allowed to cut the claws from the carcass untill you are home with the whole animal, for the same reason.

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Next the stupid antivaxxers will be clamoring to take udca, making it harder for people who actually need it to get it.

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“But what the hell am I supposed to do with this warehouse full of horsey paste now?”

>The intense reactions from the initial shots means that our bodies were severely lacking in defending itself from the virus

That doesn't sound right. The mRNA vaccines contain no actual virus, so more severe side effects are caused by a stronger, not weaker, immune response. A more typical pattern is mild reaction to the first shot (when the spike protein is totally unrecognized), followed by a much more severe reaction to the second shot. Reaction to Pfizer shots was generally milder due to the lower dose.

Will this post fall under “misinformation”, “disinformation” or “malinformation”? I don’t want to mislabel anything?

See table 12 here. Among people age 18-64 getting a second dose of Moderna, 17% reported a fever (possibly biased downwards by people not taking temperature), over 60% reported headache, fatigue, and myalgia, and nearly 48% reported chills. This is significantly higher than for people over age 65 or for people age 18-64 getting the first dose.

I wish they would study why some people have terrible reactions. My wife and I have had 5 modernas. My reaction to the first was 12 h of fever and chills. Subsequent reactions are less and less. I have had covid twice since the vacs. My wife none, though we shared the same environment. Why? There is a reason beyond differing exposure. It would be valuable to know.

in 2020 this report would've gotten op hung in the gallows

True! Fortunately, it's something you can buy as a dietary supplement from pretty legit vendors

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My SIL comes from an anti-vax family. He defied all his upbringing and had the vaccine anyway. My daughter had to take him to hospital afterwards - panic attack.

Some people genuinely can't take it, but I think it's overstated / misinterpreted how many.

I myself had mild non-allergic reactions to 2 of the 4 shots I've had. The first Astrazenica shot was the worst, with 2 days off work, but I chalk it up to an immune response to a new pathogen. Exactly what it's supposed to be doing. 2nd AZ shot - nothing, then Pfizer, reaction again, though much milder.

I recently had an allergic reaction to a common drug. Very different experience.

I have not had COVID.

Edit: That is to say, both things are responses but an anaphylaxic reaction is not the same as an anti-body reaction.

https://pch.health.wa.gov.au/For-health-professionals/Emergency-Department-Guidelines/Anaphylaxis

Scientists? The internet says scientists are conspiracy theorist that are in collusion with the US Gov't and COVID is a fake disease unsupported by the inflated number of deaths. Me? I read that boiling your own urine and then dipping panties in it and wringing them out into a bamboo cup from Indonesia to which you add Cocopuffs and let it sit for 7 hours and then microwave it for 3.5 seconds before you snort it through a stainless steel straw (NOT the Cocopuffs!) and hold your breath until you almost pass out is the ONLY way to prevent COVID infection...

You’re missing the other half of that though. Pharma companies also heavily push ads, samples, white papers, etc to the doctors. This means that if the patient brings it up, the doctor will have likely heard of it and be more likely to prescribe. Barring that, a doctor isn’t going to risk a malpractice suit for prescribing a drug that may injure their patient

Bear bile? I had some here all along as I travel to Asia and it’s a stomach remedy there (this is not from bears but is the same chemical they harm bears for —it’s real medicine!).

It's not rushed out. If you read the actual paper, it literally says across every single page that it is still in the process of review. If you choose to disregard that information and take it as truth, that's you not understanding how the system works. It's no fault of the researchers and no indication of the quality of the research.

Source: I write and publish scientific papers for work.

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How are your patients relevant to the fact that he doesn't know anyone who was hospitalized from covid?

How is the fact that he doesn’t know anyone hospitalized for COVID relevant to my patients?

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It doesn't mean that. The whole thing is way more chaotic and complex. Reactions don't indicate better or worse immune response.

When you don’t know anyone IRL, it’s pretty easy to not know anyone hospitalized.

The taurine conjugate of UDCA known as TUDCA is also widely available on the over-the-counter supplement market (even Amazon).

You're the one responding to him, not the other way around.

His/her statement implies that because they don't know anyone hospitalized that means COVID isn't that bad.

Moderna. No adverse reactions. Flu shot bothered me more.

Is it safe and well tolerated?

Wait you know he takes this medicine?

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So now we will have another shortage of a drug because the Tin Foil Hat Anti-vaxxers are demanding it from Doctors off label.

I didn't say it changed that fact but that doesn't mean it's a death sentence by any means any more than the flu. Some people just have better stock. Stronger, apparently. I cannot explain it.

That's an anecdote and means nearly nothing.

It's been 3 years. I'm assuming this has all been explained to you, but you enjoy lying?

>Granted it won't keep you from getting it and spreading it

This isn't true. It's not as effective at reducing infection and spread as we'd like, but it certainly does help.

Yeah. Bodybuilders often take it to ameliorate liver toxicity from oral steroids that they take. It reliably reduces liver enzymes on blood tests (among other things) which is a positive indicator for improving health.

I don’t know a single person who has died from smoking. I don’t see what the big deal is. (Note: I don’t know anyone who smokes)

Hmm. I drink too much beer. I’m interested.

You can buy it as a natural supplement from ox bile. Often used to help people dissolves stones or aid digestion after they’ve had their gallbladder removed.

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“$11,856.99 per mL, your insurance covers $11,806.99 but only in tablet form and 0.05 tablet per year. but only if your doctor also sends his firstborn child”

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And for the vast majority of people, that's true.

And most people aren't victims of homicides so we should just let murderers go free.