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Strange-Ad1209 t1_j1z5crr wrote

Schooling provides Knowledge, not Intelligence.

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i_have_thick_loads OP t1_j1z7yea wrote

Yes; Stuart Ritchie has found education impacts specific ability rather than general ability (intelligence).

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25775112/

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louislinaris t1_j1zdrfp wrote

Look into theories of intelligence. Some include fluid vs. Crystallized intelligence, where fluid can be thought of a brain horse power and crystallized is merely knowledge and skills. Because we use tests to measure intelligence, test taking skill and knowledge of specific item types translates into measured intelligence

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rumpleforeskins t1_j1zis9s wrote

Yeah. I don't know much specific about this topic, but it always struck me that if general intelligence describes things like pattern recognition and problem solving ability, I'm almost certain those things can be practiced and improved, and therefore people can increase their "intelligence". Eg you can learn to break down big problems into smaller problems, and you can learn reading techniques that improve comprehension and speed.

"Intelligence" is a weird thing. I've always found it easier to just focus on "being good at" this or or that.

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Victra_au_Julii t1_j1zz6ep wrote

> I'm almost certain those things can be practiced and improved

What leads you to believe this?

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rumpleforeskins t1_j20xn9a wrote

Do you have a different experience/opinion? You reckon it's hardcoded at birth?

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rumpleforeskins t1_j20x803 wrote

Because you can learn techniques to improve these very things. Eg a computer science class will teach you how to think generally about problems and assess time/space complexity, and will show you how to break down big problems into small ones, which is a generally applicable skill, not just for writing code.

Reading courses can teach you techniques to broaden your reading width and anchor on word segments rather than whole words. It can teach you to read the first and last sentence of a paragraph first and then summarize what you just read after each paragraph so you improve retention and concept abstraction, both of which are generally useful skills.

SAT prep course can teach you how to use process of elimination to invalidate potential answers and reduce the set possible solutions. That is a generalizable skill that helps with executive problem solving more broadly.

If you're looking for citations im afraid I can't provide those off the top of my head (like I said I don't study intelligence). But intuitively I'd venture that many of the things we attribute to intelligence are just skills like the ones I mention above that have been practiced or happen to be specific talents of individuals, and are in many cases ones that can be practiced and improved.

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imagine_that t1_j21bhp4 wrote

Right, those specific skills can be improved. And yet, even in the application of those 'meta skills' onto *new* problem sets, between people, you can kinda still see differences in speed, totality of application of the meta skill onto the new problem set and fine tune adjustment of differing implications.

Sometimes it just takes less for some people to wield meta skills more robustly compared to others.

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rumpleforeskins t1_j21xbbx wrote

Good point. I guess that's a good way to point out "intelligence"--given that two people learn the same meta skills, one may still outperform the other when applying those new skills in a new test. Perhaps they're exhibiting greater general intelligence. ¯\_(:|)_/¯

I'm definitely speaking from intuition, so I hope I've made that clear enough.

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nowyouseemenowyoudo2 t1_j21h1t9 wrote

You’d be wrong though. As a psychologist who has administered the WAIS and WISC, there’s no way to ‘practice’ to improve fluid intelligence.

The test-retest validity is extremely high because it has to be, any IQ test you can train for is not a real IQ test. Also, any IQ test which you can take without a qualified administrator is not a real IQ test.

I had to study for years to become qualified to administer them, and only then was I able to access the materials and be supervised in their use.

The things you are talking about are not fluid intelligence. Your intuition about this is wrong.

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WillCode4Cats t1_j21nswx wrote

What are your opinions on the subject of IQ?

My main gripe with the tests (I took a WAIS-IV) is that there are potentially many variables that are not accounted for when taking the test, thus I feel that anyone’s result is just a snapshot of that person’s “intelligence” at that point in time, but the value is not static except for perhaps in the best of conditions where many of the variables have the same values.

What I mean is, what if someone stayed up for 48 hours and took a test? Do you believe this would impact one’s score? How about longer than 48 hours? What if they did not eat properly, are extremely stressed, etc.?

It’s why I have a hard time when psychologist try to warp qualitative data into quantitative results. Take height, for example. In any of the variables I listed above, a full grown adult’s height would remain static. That is because it is a quantitative result — unlike IQ.

I understand how much research has been conducted on IQ and it’s validity, but I would like to see more data and research from neurology than the soft sciences.

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rumpleforeskins t1_j21xpx5 wrote

I see! Good to know. I'm glad I issued the disclaimer that I don't actually know what I'm talking about.

It's an interesting subject.

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louislinaris t1_j21p9za wrote

Agree. And this acquired knowledge can be divided into declarative knowledge (knowing what) and procedural knowledge (knowing how/ skill)

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Cynical_lemonade t1_j1zz69x wrote

So I'm not stupid my brain is just a diesel; more torque than horsepower and hard to start in the morning.

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o2lsports t1_j20odbi wrote

This is incorrect. School isn’t just about memorizing facts. Effective teaching creates new neural pathways related to critical thinking and problem-solving. Also known as, drum roll, intelligence.

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Strange-Ad1209 t1_j20v0sr wrote

Knowledge isn't about memorizing anything. Proper schooling teaches how to take information and apply it, that is what is known as knowledge, the ability to apply information to problem solving. Intelligence exists whether or not someone has attended formal education or not.

Natives of many lands for instance are extremely intelligent but may have never had any formal schooling except in what they learn from elders in day to day survival. Real World Problem solving approaches by the people who've had no formal education is often far more efficient and straight forward than methods employed by Ph.D's (which is why many Ph.D's are called Piled Higher and Deeper types by Engineers... 8-) )

As a retired Engineering instructor some of my best students had to unlearn a lot of rote memorization they'd been exposed to in so called High Schools but that was my purpose in sticking with the Associate and Bachelor's level students so they could unlearn the bad methods and begin to apply third order learning to solve the types of unpredictable problems presented in real world engineering projects.

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dangil t1_j1zxek2 wrote

No. It teaches you how to think

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Tioben t1_j20bp60 wrote

Same thing. Intelligence is just generalized knowledge about patterns that may or may not be functional in a given physical or social context.

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ReddJudicata t1_j22eq90 wrote

That’s actually not what these data show for for subsets of intelligence tested. Read the paper.

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Yerwun t1_j21u6cz wrote

Mmm nope. Someone who's been to school is going to do much better on an IQ test, on average, than someone with no education.

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acvdk t1_j22p4i8 wrote

It may also teach you how to do well on tests that purport to measure intelligence, especially if you aren’t very smart. The SAT correlates strongly with IQ, but it isn’t particularly hard for someone to raise their score from the 20th to 30th percentile with study. Going from the 94th to 98th is nearly impossible though regardless of effort.

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