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_--00--_ t1_j1zb2hu wrote

I dont know of a better way to find a correlation between legislature and the effects on people.

But it's weird to me that they would try to prove it through Google searches.

I was suicidal and depressed for most of my life and don't know if I ever actually googled suicide or depression. If anything I'd be worried people would see I googled that stuff

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Fuzakenaideyo t1_j1zok9i wrote

When I was in my 20s i certainly googled it & the safest least painful ways to do it.

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QncyFie t1_j275djc wrote

Yeah it's soothing like that. Just that

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_--00--_ t1_j1zq9nk wrote

Yeah. I'm not saying suicidal people don't. I'm saying, it's not an indicator of how many people are suicidal or depressed.

2 of us were suicidal. 1 googled it. 1 didn't. No indication of anything

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ritchie70 t1_j1zt99a wrote

If you accept that 50% consistently Google then Google searches are a good relative indicator of suicidal inclination in the population and can be used to compare states over time.

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PM-me-your-moogles t1_j1zt64r wrote

How many mentally well people are googling suicide and suicide methods though?

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Trichotillomaniac- t1_j21rgxx wrote

I would assume an equal amount of (mentally well) people regardless of the transgender legislation in their area. Thus its a reasonable assumption higher search rates indicate more interest in suicide for transgender people.

But even if it is more mentally well people who cares? Isnt less total suicide searches ideal? Or os there actually a case for suicide searches being mentally healthy? I doubt that. Less suicide searches seems more better in my opinion. +lgbt laws reduce depression, i dont need anymore than that.

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PM-me-your-moogles t1_j21ukw9 wrote

I mean...I agree. I have a LGBT child who has mental illness.

I was responding to someone who seemed to want to wave away the statistics and data.

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_--00--_ t1_j2052gv wrote

Probably less than suicidal people. But that depends if the word just needed to be in the search. Like if I search for suicide squad, does that count?

To answer your question, neither of us know. But I assume we'd both agree mentally well people goole those words less in general

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PM-me-your-moogles t1_j21h4pi wrote

The way I see the data, is let's say if you Google suicide squad, when suicide squad is released in theaters, they would say "When Suicide Squad comes out, the searches for suicide go up." Well we can correlate that to the movie and assume that uptick is NOT from suicidal people.

I imagine the average google searches per day for "suicide squad, etc", factor into the average searches per day even long after the movie is out.

So if anti-lgbt legislature hits the news, and the searches for suicide go up...we can safely assume that uptick is not from people searching up movie titles more...but probably from the LGBT community which already has higher suicide rates in general because of social stigma. So...law/bill that hurts LGBT people goes out, searches for suicide go up... It's pretty point a to point b.

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[deleted] t1_j21s8ap wrote

[deleted]

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ZSpectre t1_j220of7 wrote

Eh, they were just using a hypothetical example to demonstrate how we interpret data based on context in general. Nitpicking how the hypothetical example doesn't fit the validity of the population kind of misses their point since that wasn't what they were trying to explain.

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GodBlessThisGhetto t1_j22dyvr wrote

This is what gets me about these “citizen scientist” types. Don’t you think the scientists carefully crafting a rigorous analysis that needs to pass extensive peer review know enough to make sure that “Suicide Squad” isn’t captured by what they’re searching for?

How do you think that the experts are dumb enough to miss an exceedingly obvious confound instead of correcting for it or at least being aware of it? It’s like the anti-climate change people looking at a paper and going “did they account for volcanic activity” as if that’s some huge missing link that was likely overlooked.

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_--00--_ t1_j23qqso wrote

Did you read about the study?

I'm not a scientist. I'm no expert. I also don't know if this was peer reviewed. I didn't read it was. But from what I read, yes they used the word suicide and depression for these numbers. And used them against searches for weather per region. So no, they did not account for search context.

This research seems lazy. I already know more gays and trans are suicidal under laws that are against them. But this study was fuckign stupid and poorly done.

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abaoabao2010 t1_j1zs557 wrote

Pro tip: statistics cares not about anecdotal cases, as long as there's a high correlation between two different things.

Using your logic, you can arrive at stupid conclusions like: getting stabbed is good for your longevity, because there's these two people, one of whom got stabbed but is still alive today, but the other was killed by a car last year while never getting stabbed.

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_--00--_ t1_j1zst5n wrote

Yes. Very good?

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BadRapeThoughts t1_j21bdqu wrote

He's just pointing out that you seemed to be making quite a leap saying "it indicates nothing" based on a sample size of two. Based on the rest of your comments it seems like you weren't actually saying that it's a completely useless way to measure rates of suicidal ideation, but just pointing out the possibility of there being some limitations to the method and wondering out loud what the parameters were. Which I think is perfectly valid and worth looking more closely at.

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CalvinFragilistic t1_j1zw2e2 wrote

The normal amount of suicidal ideation is zero. Regardless of whether these people went on to try something, this is indicative of serious mental health consequences from damaging legislation.

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_--00--_ t1_j204e6q wrote

Yes... that is what the study is saying.

I'm saying, I feel like there's a better way to find this correlation outside of saying how many people in this state googled the word suicide and or depression.

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CalvinFragilistic t1_j21teqk wrote

I see what you’re saying, it’s just that I think it’s most likely that the people Googling suicide-related keywords are probably doing so because of suicidal ideation, so I think the logic behind the study holds. They could be looking up those topics for research or to help a friend or something, but in general, thinking excessively about death and/or suicide is associated with depression, so it seems likely that suicidal people would be doing the majority of that Googling. But that being said, there are definitely more precise means of researching this subject and I think it’s important to constantly be looking for better ways of approaching these questions

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SolarDor t1_j21qlbf wrote

I have a sobriety app that resets any time I search ‘suicide’ or ‘physician-assisted suicide.’ I don’t know if it helps or not… currently, I’m 5 days sober.

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_--00--_ t1_j21u8g4 wrote

Hey congrats on the sobriety dude. 5 days is a beginning. I remember when I was 5 days without cigarettes. Onto 3 years... in 3 years, you'll be saying the same thing to someone else

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hymen_destroyer t1_j20ofqv wrote

This is some insanely lazy research. I’m surprised it was published in an actual journal

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Studiousskittle t1_j227chm wrote

It’s almost like scientists care more about getting the results they want rather than what’s true. The concept of science isn’t the problem, it’s the flawed people practicing it.

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AccordingPicture6441 t1_j1zhiut wrote

this isnt factual studies this is opinion pieces. general google searches isnt a control study. its like saying andrew tate cures depression because lots of men search for him on google.

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phoenix_rising t1_j1zqgsy wrote

I think it's more rigorous than an opinion piece but not a conclusive study. I can't think of another publicly available source of data that could be used. It's a good first step, but a follow-up tracking the mood and sentiment of teens in multiple states would be more conclusive.

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Wedge38 t1_j1zentv wrote

Many right wingers view this as a positive. They want to eradicate trans people.

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Foxyfox- t1_j20nez2 wrote

Yup, us LGBT folks have been saying this for years as the rhetoric has ramped up that genocide is the end goal, and no one believes us.

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Laura-ly t1_j208rje wrote

I haven't read the study yet but I can tell you one thing, my daughter is transgender and she's happy as hell that she lives in Portland Oregon and not Florida or Missouri.

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omgcheez t1_j20ribx wrote

I'm an adult, and with how things are going, I am very greatful to be living in California. My heart goes out to people that have been negatively impacted by legislation.

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8amflex t1_j231yzh wrote

I'm not from the US so I haven't really got any decent insight into this but I was wondering what legislation you're referring too?

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soldforaspaceship t1_j20dwnu wrote

I'm happy for your daughter too. Feel for those in places that hate their very existence.

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2_tires t1_j1zgv23 wrote

Just curious, what is “anti-transgender legislation” ?

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Mont_fox t1_j1zhp3c wrote

Removing medical coverage or putting extra hurdles in the way of being able to seek care are good examples. Florida has passed laws that make it harder for health providers to treat people without insurance for gender related care. It caused my cost to go from $250ish for a new patient to 550ish.

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Padhome t1_j208i5c wrote

Don't forget the Dont Say Gay law in Florida, and the fact that Texas passed a law that can imprison parents for having a trans child and destroy families. They've been fleeing the state or sending their kids to trusted friends and relatives. i.e. The Republican party has created political refugees in our own country.

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jaketeater t1_j1ztvfm wrote

The study looked at " the relationship between anti-transgender bills and Google searches". According to Table 1, there were 40 bills (2 of which became laws).

To determine which were anti-transgender, they used the list compiled by Freedom For All Americans, here: https://freedomforallamericans.org/legislative-tracker/anti-transgender-legislation/

Edit:

The bills found on the above site were cross checked with the ACLU's tracker

The whole process is described under the heading "Context of current study"

There were 40 bills. It's annoying that they didn't include a list of the bills.

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bigbabyfruitsnacks t1_j1zsico wrote

Also included would be laws like 'don't say gay' laws that prevent trans kids from learning about what they are going through at school

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uninstallIE t1_j202wvc wrote

Any laws that are about transgender people in a way that harms them. For example, laws preventing transgender kids from getting the medical care they need.

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Joped t1_j20p7hq wrote

This is exactly what the right wants. They want us to kill our selves off so they don’t have the blood directly on their hands.

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rmimsmusic t1_j21picy wrote

Not only that, but they want to virtue signal and say, "oh my god, look at how high the suicide rate is for these trans people! We need to convert them immediately so that they don't kill themselves, because we care"

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Netan_MalDoran t1_j228okb wrote

The left does a good enough job at decreasing their own domestic voter base, I don't think they need any help.

−10

Taier t1_j21yxqu wrote

If you , or someone you know, might be considering suicide, please pause. More than 95% of people who attempt suicide and survive report immediately regretting the attempt. Things will change. Things WILL get better. Talk to someone.

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Ireland, dial 4408457909090

Israel, dial 1201

Italy, dial 800860022

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Japan, dial 810352869090

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Kuwait, dial 94069304

Latvia, dial 37167222922

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Netherlands, dial 9000113

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If your country isn’t listed, that doesn’t mean someone to talk to isn’t available, it just means I couldn’t find a single national hotline for your country. Many countries have support numbers by region or city; search for help in your location using any search engine. But please, spend a few minutes talking to someone before you make a irreversible decision- you have nothing to lose by talking.

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Elfthis t1_j206skt wrote

This study seems to be lacking the necessary rigor that would add credence to the author's conclusions. Have to wonder if this paper went through any kind of peer review before being published.

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Padhome t1_j208w8g wrote

Yeah but the causal link is so obvious. It's been known for years that trans people have higher rates of suicide when they are blocked from transitioning.

−5

Ravatu t1_j20t7yt wrote

I read that the studies most relied on to come to this conclusion show that people with gender dysphoria are more likely to answer "yes" to "Have you ever considered suicide?"

This has been interpreted as "gender dysphoric people are more likely to commit suicide."

It makes me wonder how much of this increased interest in suicide is driven by the normalization of suicidal thoughts as a response to medical policy (by the media). Would this study have the same results if we hadn't told young people that they are more likely to commit suicide by being trans?

If you have a source for actual higher rates of suicide, I would be curious to read it. If you're curious for a source on the "commit" vs. "consider", I can dig it up.

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Netan_MalDoran t1_j228ztg wrote

Well this may surprise you, but statistically, people with gender dysphoria have higher quantities of other mental illnesses. And more often than not, when the other issues are fixed, the gender dysphoria goes away.

At the end of the day, there are much fewer people who are ACTUALLY transgender once all other issues have been properly fixed.

−3

Neurotic_Bakeder t1_j22iwyi wrote

Source please!

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Netan_MalDoran t1_j22ojfg wrote

Here's one study I found. They were determining if gender affirming care helped reduce mental illness and suicide and had looked at correlations of the two in Sweden.

Ultimately a correction to the study was published that they were unable to determine if gender affirming care helped or not, but the raw data from the study appears to still be useful.

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080

−5

Neurotic_Bakeder t1_j22rfkj wrote

? I don't know if you read a very different study than I did but that's not what this seems to say.

The purpose of this study was to track anxiety & mood disorder prevalence among trans people, by looking at rates of treatment/medication, and to see if hormone treatment or surgery had an effect on the rates of mental health treatment trans people seek out.

They found that most people getting hormone therapy for a long time seek out mental health support at about the same rate as those who have just started. For surgeries, they found that, the more time that passes since that surgery, the less mental health support trans people seek out. That indicates that gender affirming surgery is helpful and has a positive effect on trans people's mental health.

You are correct that trans people experience mental health struggles at a higher rate than others, but you've got it backwards - once you support the gender issues, the mental health stuff gets easier.

DOI that comes up for your link: https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080

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Nivekuh t1_j22tj3c wrote

It’s common knowledge that people suffering from gender dysphoria also suffer from higher levels of impacted mental health (likely as a result of gender dysphoria in the first place, as mentioned in the study you linked), but do you have a source for your second, much less intuitive statement?

The study and data only suggests that gender-affirming surgeries may reduce suicide attempts and utilization of mental health treatments, and doesn’t at all support your statement that gender dysphoria disappears when mental health issues are addressed (even after the corrections, the authors pretty much say the opposite, in fact - that mental health is expected to improve when gender dysphoria is addressed).

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jaketeater t1_j20onz5 wrote

The study depended, in part, on the ACLU's list of legislation.

I found the ACLU's list of "Anti-LGBTQ Bills" from the 2020 session.

It has 52 bills in its list, all which were active in the time period of the study. (The study used data from 40 bills)

Using this list, it would move GA, IA, OK, SC, ID, IN, WA, and WV from states w/o "Anti-LGBTQ Bills" to those with. And it would move CA from with to w/o.

That seems like it could shift things around quite a bit.

https://www.aclu.org/past-legislation-affecting-lgbt-rights-across-country-2020

​

edit: removed ID added IN

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rhadam t1_j232fr0 wrote

A quasi experimental study is not appropriate for this subject matter. It’s an attempt to work backwards and achieve a desired correlation.

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standarduser2 t1_j20qlsj wrote

Specific states have significantly more LGBT people than others?

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Renedegame t1_j21bepd wrote

People are more likely to come out in some places, and people will move.

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standarduser2 t1_j2297wr wrote

I would think they would be equal to or more likely to move to tolerant regions though, so the study seems weird.

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1

Version_Two t1_j226z9f wrote

Hmmm, if only there was some kind of obvious connection, then we'd know how to help!

0

Songmuddywater t1_j21m3e9 wrote

What a load of garbage . name a non-progressive area that has a high LGBT population? Explain why the LGBT population in progressive areas have higher suicide rates than in conservative areas?

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Theguywhosme t1_j1zoqvj wrote

Google searches don't mean anything.

What is the actal real life suicide rate?

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argenticide t1_j1zzkvf wrote

Disproportionately higher. It's an easily googled statistic.

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Ravatu t1_j20wecc wrote

I tried to find this data, and went through 10 studies before I found one with actual death rates (source). The study is based on Switzerland, and concludes an actual suicide rate of ~40 per 100,000 people years in gender dysphoric (GD) people, compared to 10 per 100,000 people in Switzerland.

At first glance, this seems disproportionately higher for GD people. What is confusing though, is looking at this suicide heat map (source), half the counties in Arizona have that 40/100,000 suicide rate. Lower populated counties often have the higher suicide rates, which tells me there is a lot of variability in the data, and a small population can often lead to higher numbers. The linked study follows a population of 8000 GD, compared to counties of 100,000s-1,000,000s of people with comparable increases in suicide rates.

I won't make any claim about causality between suicide and gender dysphoria. What I will say is that the conflict in data here illustrates this is a complicated statistic to call "causal." It is not an "easily googled statistic."

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Theguywhosme t1_j21glmz wrote

>Results: >Out of 5107 trans women (median age at first visit 28 years, median follow-up time 10 years) and 3156 trans men (median age at first visit 20 years, median follow-up time 5 years), 41 trans women and 8 trans men died by suicide. In trans women, suicide deaths decreased over time, while it did not change in trans men. Of all suicide deaths, 14 people were no longer in treatment, 35 were in treatment in the previous two years. The mean number of suicides in the years 2013–2017 was higher in the trans population compared with the Dutch population.

>Conclusions: We observed no increase in suicide death risk over time and even a decrease in suicide death risk in trans women. However, the suicide risk in transgender people is higher than in the general population and seems to occur during every stage of transitioning. It is important to have specific attention for suicide risk in the counseling of this population and in providing suicide prevention programs.

This seems to be completely different from what Reddit has led me to believe about trans suicide rate. I was always told it was something crazy like 40% and that transitioning was like night and day and completely stopped people from suicide. Why don't more people talk about this?

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argenticide t1_j22v400 wrote

u/Ravatu

The problem is that you're both looking at "how many people died by suicide" versus "how many people attempted suicide". This is an entirely different statistic that, in my clinical viewpoint, vastly dismisses the very real effects of minority stress and anti-LGBTQ legislation on the mental health of LGBTQ people. It also dismisses incomplete or attempted suicides as less serious. More on that momentarily.

I want to link to a variety of studies and articles that talk about the disproportionate suicidality among LGBTQ individuals before diving in further.

​

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/ Youth suicidality, general overview. Easy to read snapshot.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/visualization/lgbt-toplines/ *** Starred because these are findings are very recent and many efforts were made to make this generalizable to the USA's LGBTQ population. The full report can be found here: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/generations-transpop-toplines/

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423 tl;dr "This study found that gender-affirming medical interventions were associated with lower odds of depression and suicidality over 12 months. These data add to existing evidence suggesting that gender-affirming care may be associated with improved well-being among TNB youths over a short period, which is important given mental health disparities experienced by this population, particularly the high levels of self-harm and suicide." US - Youth

https://www.nature.com/articles/s44159-022-00109-0#Sec4 Well rounded explanation of disparities with links to additional research on suicidality disparities between transgender and cisgender individuals.

If you want more, here's Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C27&as_vis=1&q=suicidality+disparity+transgender&btnG=

​

The reason why I stress suicidality and suicide *attempts* is because, frankly, viewing only completed suicides as life-threatening is callous and inhumane. I'm not sure how else to explain that suicidal ideation is complex, serious, and worth of concern even if an individual only contemplates suicide or attempts suicide. Whether or not transgender people are *completing* suicide, they experience suicidality at much higher rates than their cisgender and heterosexual peers.

Speaking to u/Ravatu first, I can't see the suicide heat map because your link goes to the article. I'd also like to point out that Netherland's model of healthcare, culture, and general social supports are markedly different than the US-- especially Arizona. I wouldn't use studies with a Dutch population to try and generalize to the US. That being said, this study directly states:

"A recent literature review clearly demonstrates the specific risk factors for suicide in sexual minority youth,which includes negative social environments, inadequate support within the closest social network, and an absence of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) movements in commu-ities (29). In our cohort, both trans women andtrans men show a three- to four-fold elevated risk of suicide compared with the population rate in the Netherlands and can therefore be considered a high-risk group."

I don't doubt there are counties in the US where the suicide rate is over 40 per 100k. However, again, you're looking at completed suicides rather than suicidality as a whole. If you looked at these same suicide hot spots and could look at data for cis/het vs LGBTQ people, I would expect to see LGBTQ people have higher suicide rates than cis/het peers.

​

u/Theguywhosme Please take a look at the third and fourth links above for an overview of the affects of affirming treatment on mental health outcomes! Affirmative treatment *is* effective in reducing suicidality in LGBTQ individuals. However, the overall suicidality rate remains high due to other factors such as cultural stigma, disproportionate violence against LGBTQ people, inability to meet basic needs (LGBTQ people are more likely to be homeless or have experienced homelessness), etc. This is often called minority stress.

​

edit// formatting problems

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