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[deleted] t1_ix90y1p wrote

Reply to comment by Spinningwoman in Genetics combined with long years of schooling and little time outdoors can lead to myopia by Quiglius

It turns out me and everyone else in school was right when we said those chairs and school busses were ruining our backs and staring at a chalk board under fluorescent lighting all day was ruining our eyes and all of it combined was bad for our health, physical and mental.

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Dmeechropher t1_ix9k2bh wrote

School would probably lead to better societal outcomes if it were 4-5 hours of exercise, free play, crafts (ceramics, shop, cooking) and 2-3 hours classroom learning until the year before HS exams.

This could be followed by a year of exam prep, exams and placement, then high school as university prep.

People with basic skills like cooking, sewing, basic home maintenance, and hobbies like art, decoration, crafts are generally more efficient workers, save and invest more money, and have better respect for people doing services as a career.

As a person who did 9 AP exams, 200+ credits in university (120 required to grad), and most of a PhD (fingers crossed, a whole PhD in February), I'm not convinced that there's that much important content to learn at the school level. Most of elementary school and middle school was basically repetition of the same content and make-work assignments which required nothing beyond rote copying some text. High school was hardly better, though there certainly was more make-work...

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quats5 t1_ixa573o wrote

Looking back as an adult, yes, the content seems boring and repetitive. But that’s because we know it now.

Elementary school sets foundations to build on with more detailed, thoughtful, and expansive approaches as you progress, and you need to get solid foundation in or you are building a house of cards. Repetition works (with enough variety to keep it interesting, and taught appropriately and well).

I suffer a bit in math now because my family moved a couple times while I was in early school, and each state has different standards. Interestingly enough, when we stopped in Louisiana (lucked out tremendously and landed in good elementary schools in a state notorious for terrible education) I was way ahead in reading/English/spelling/writing but a year behind in math and had to go into remedial math.

Mom was terribly embarrassed by this and pushed me to catch up. I rushed the times table, multiplication, and long division enough to “catch up” —

but, looking back, I did not get enough practice to really get those locked down solid. I am bright. I am good with math (except for being ADHD so I struggle to remember numbers long enough to do even simple math in my head). I loved high school geometry and how much sense calculus makes — it’s really just physics!

…and yet, with that rushed foundation of one year’s elementary school math, I struggle more than I should with simple math. I still don’t really remember all the times table and have to stop and work it out. 7x8 is… oh crap… I should know this… well 6x8 is 48 so plus 8, hey it’s 56, that sounds right.

I was in Gifted program and Talented Art. Honors and AP classes in high school. I won awards in academic competitions in multiple STEM and non-STEM subjects from then on, including two years of top combined scores in the state for the Duke Talent Identification Program (and it is a bit of an ego boost to start getting college recruiting packets based on your SAT scores when you are 12 years old).

I got accepted to all the universities I applied to and scholarships to most (partial scholarships— I’m clever, not brilliant). I took pre-med chemistry I & II in college as my science electives, because I like chemistry (other folks in my compsci major advised, “Take Geology, its easy, you lick rocks”) and I aced it.

And I still struggle with the friggin’ times table.

Simply because I got a rocky, rushed spot without enough repetition in my foundation to make it natural. I’m just clever enough to compensate. But it’s not fun, because I know I should be better, but only started to question why as a much older adult.

And sometimes I wonder what I could have been if I had gotten those down as solidly as I should have.

And I wonder what happens to the kids who get similar rough spots for one of so many reasons it can happen, and aren’t clever enough to compensate.

Don’t knock what looks easy to you from an advantaged perspective.

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Dmeechropher t1_ixa7k6q wrote

Dude, the times table doesn't take 6 hours a day for 7 years to learn, it can be learned in a month tops. It takes most people who don't do arithmetic regularly a moment to retrieve that knowledge. What you're describing as "poor learning" of the times table is just the regular amount for most people.

Plus, you've gone and showed exactly why it doesn't matter that much: you did INCREDIBLY well compared to the average student and you claim that you can't even do the tasks taught in early education reliably as an adult. Clearly, the skills they were teaching you were not important, if you failed to learn them next to completely and are the picture of success.

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gdfishquen t1_ixazfbt wrote

If you had a seemless education, you still might not know your times table's. I don't. I'm terrible at remembering rote facts like times table's, years, names, spelling etc. But you know what? I still did great in school and even successfully washed out of a PhD program (turns out I hate failure and writing). I'm even pretty decent in math (took up to Calc 2 in college) and my favorite puzzle app is Nerdle which is basically Wordle but algebra instead. Do I need to look at a calculator every 2 seconds? Absolutely, but while I can't work out 34-27 quickly in my head, I can work through the logic behind why that's the right equation to use and I'd argue being able to understand the logic behind what you're looking to do is often more important than 2nd grade math.

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_Wyrm_ t1_ixbuu1k wrote

I absolutely suck at basic and mental math; but sit me down in front of a paper and a pen, and I'll give you answer to whatever calculus problem you'd like...

Provided it's not an obtusely difficult problem and I'm afforded the internet to get the necessary formulas and a refresher on how to use them, of course. And if not, I could always just go hunting for my cal1&2 notebooks to review

But if anyone wanted me to make a multiplication table relying solely on either mental math or from memory... I'd tell them to pound sand. I'd rather just use excel or something

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ElectrikDonuts t1_ixd4vlk wrote

By the time I was in 4th grade I had gone to 6 schools... (5 states)

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[deleted] t1_ix9la6w wrote

Agreed. Aside from some basic math and language skills, everything taught in grade school is inccomplete to the point of uselessness and often plain wrong.

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Dmeechropher t1_ix9mb9w wrote

Plus, the math skills are basically useless, because, at least in the US, math is taught without the logical framework of proofs, or the practical framework for the usefulness of an approximate model for a process or physics application.

The integration of math, physics, statistical modelling, chemistry etc in grade school is absolutely pathetic. There is absolutely no intuition taught about how math is the language of approximation and deduction. There is absolutely no practical intuition taught about what a model is and why models are used. Equations are just taught as gifts from some dead guy which you must use with random numbers to extract a grade.

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fleamarketenthusiest t1_ixc4qh1 wrote

Maybe if it was supposed to prepare you to be a well rounded and socially adapted adult ready to handle society at large

In reality its just conditioning children to be acceptable in whatever the local dominant industry is while keeping them ignorant to the inner mechaninations of society- ie. How to do their taxes- so that they can grow up to be nice little docile tax-cattle-consumers that wont ever develop enough social, ecenomic, or political power to ever be in a position to change the system that keeps them and their offspring in that cycle.

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Rauleigh t1_ixckaif wrote

If u listen to any high school student they will tell u how they wish their teachers had taught them how to do their taxes! I still wish I understood how to do it so I didn't have to pay an online service to work it out and could actually have full agency in my economic life.

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Dmeechropher t1_ixdj086 wrote

It's not that deep. Society & government know school is valuable, and good school is better, but reform, especially national reform, is really difficult. Different regions think they want different things, as do different voters.

The easiest approach is to incrementally require some new standard, a new test, new collection of content, etc etc. The problem here, for me, is that I think the system needs LESS of most things and MORE subtlety and nuance for the the things which remain.

Problem is: most educators and policy makers were educated in the main stream. The ideas I have, which are more normal in other places or at other times, are just alien to them.

There isn't a national conspiracy to keep people as quiet tax paying cattle because there doesn't have to be. People like being quiet tax paying cattle. Education is about helping people produce more throughout their lives because a rising tide raises all ships.

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Strazdas1 t1_ixcuvb3 wrote

You have to remmeber that the current austrian school model was created to prepare people into being labourers in a factory where they would spend their days working on assembly lines.

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