Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

funkme1ster t1_itmp11u wrote

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly but... are they not just describing general neuroplasticity?

It sounds like what they observed was just neural pathways remapping as a result of deliberately repeated behaviour. This would be consistent with our existing understanding of how the brain can adapt to changes in input needs and sensory processing, no?

85

neuro__atypical t1_itms8kb wrote

You can take advantage of neuroplasticity for creating habits and behaviors to help you manage your deficits, but you can't neuroplasticity your way out of premature dopamine reuptake or low acetylcholine receptor density (two common properties of ADHD brains). The difference is important.

75

Rubyhamster t1_itmy2z6 wrote

Yeah, the phrasing in this OC rubs me the wrong way. People can't learn away fundamental workings of their brains... This is like saying you can learn away...your eyesight?

30

DelusionalZ t1_itn7d0v wrote

Well... in a way they are talking about compensatory action, right? You may not be able to "learn away" those biological differences, but the brain is extremely complex, and different elements of it are able to compensate for those differences.

7

Rubyhamster t1_itn811d wrote

Yeah totally, but the way OP (and the article?) uses "remission" makes no sense. We are born with this brain. People don't grow out of their ADHD brain.

18

ladyluckible t1_itogsxu wrote

Don’t some people actually grow out of their ADHD as they mature and their brain changes?Remission also doesn’t mean cured, it can mean symptoms or progression of symptoms isn’t happening

6

Rubyhamster t1_itowycd wrote

No, that is not the consensus among those who specialize in ADHD. As far as I know, adults who live successfully with ADHD brains have just learned tonnes of trategies of masking and coping and/or have a lifestyle/job that works well with ADHD. Why else would so many thousands get diagnosed as adults, after first picking up unhealthy coping mechanisms, addictions, depression, anxiety and OCD? My childhood worked fantastically with my ADHD so I heard for decades that I can't have it ("No, cuz you did well in school"-BS). ADHD brains are generally fantastic in certain jobs like police, fire department, freelance, arts&crafts, the army, consultant firms and highly structured jobs. It is also a spectre. There is no default setting for neurotype in humans. Autism can't be "cured" either, but we can learn like any other. E: Thank you for the explanation of "remission". I guess it can make sense if they only mean the negative aspects of "symptoms of ADHD". But, ADHD is only defined as a deficiency in modern society. The human race have evolved ADHD brains because it has been largely beneficial most of our existence. We generally work fantastically in a crisis and high intensity.

5

kathmandu_interlude t1_itpge6r wrote

I have ADHD and I study CogSci so this is a very personal topic to me. ADHD doesn't ever go away, you are correct, but it also can come in extremely varying sets of symptoms. The article suggests that through medication and therapy the synaptic pathways that have developed along the ADHD rule set can be compensated for, and while those original ADHD pathways never truly go away, they can be ignored to the point that the new pathways entirely make up for them. Hence, symptom amelioration. Hope that helps!

2

ddrcrono t1_itosaff wrote

My understanding is that there isn't such a thing as an "ADHD brain" in the traditional sense so much as it's a cluster of numerous factors. Some people have posited that it's a stress/trauma response that's more likely in people with certain setups.

1

Rubyhamster t1_itp1fl0 wrote

From all that I've read about it, that last sentence is not true. And your first: Yes, the "ADHD" brain is a multitude of factors, as is very sensible in our most intricate and advanced organ. The most prominent ones being differences in the frontal lobe and a faster reuptake of neural transmitters such as dopamine, which have a big role in motivation, focus and emotional regulation. An "ADHD brain" generally needs a lot more stimulation than a neurotypical brain.

1

BostonGeorgie12- t1_itohsp6 wrote

Studies show most people do in fact grow out of it

−3

Rubyhamster t1_itoz9wm wrote

No, those studies have been debunked. If you search up newer studies you will see that this is largely because of wrong assumptions, studies not being longitudinal and the default hypothesis comparing certain underdeveloped brain regions in children. They found what they wanted to find: That underdeveloped brains were similar to ADHD brains in certain regions. Does an ADHD child grow out of it just because they learn coping mechanisms and stop hanging in the curtains? Ofc not. They often develop anxiety, depression, OCD and addictions. There is a massive upsurge of adult diagnosing these days. Another point, there were frequent misdiagnosing, especially in the late nineties because ADHD was often just based on normal, hyper or inatentive behaviour in a lot of neurotypical, but often troubled children.

5

Orangyfrreal t1_itoj1pv wrote

By what age? Genuinely curious.

3

Rubyhamster t1_itp0uj6 wrote

By no age. You can "grow out of your symptoms", the symptoms being "hanging in the curtains". Growing out of having ADHD is a myth from more uneducated times

4

BostonGeorgie12- t1_itqhodm wrote

Actually studies from 2021 show about 9% do in fact outgrow out but i was way off with most people

https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/childhood-adhd/growing-out-of-adhd

0

Anonymous7056 t1_itqx3ud wrote

You're saying they grow out of it but posting a link that talks about controlling individual symptoms, not the condition itself...

2

Rubyhamster t1_itrv44t wrote

I think "outgrow" is a weird word for this? Have all the people living successfully with ADHD outgrown their ADHD? Or just found a lifestyle that fits their body and brain? And "symptoms" are almost always a negative. Or is my tendency to work really effiently with deadlines also a symtom?

1

Shivolry t1_itoofsg wrote

Not going to bother looking it up or verifying the information I am about to spread but I'm gonna guess 25 since that's when the brain finishes growing.

−2

Dragoness42 t1_itot8pv wrote

Isn't "learning away your eyesight" basically what happens with a lazy eye?

Phrasing may be bad but neuroplasticity is powerful stuff. Definitely can't eliminate underlying chemical/mechanical differences but can do a lot to compensate for them.

3

Rubyhamster t1_itp292q wrote

Yeah, a fascinating example is how a child with half a brain can grow up normally. But as far as we have figured, ADHD is very heritable and genetically determined. So there must be something in our genome we can't change. Evolutionists think ADHD have been largely beneficial up until recent societies. Why else would an estimated 10% be further towards ADHD than neurotypical?

3

ddrcrono t1_itos3j0 wrote

If I understand correctly, while those traits are common in people with ADHD, not everyone with those traits has ADHD, correct?

If that's the case, then the implication is that you essentially become like someone with those traits who doesn't have ADHD.

2

Dahlia_Lover t1_itmscy6 wrote

Yes. They captured neuroplasticity on scans and correlated it with symptoms. It’s good data. Not shocking in any way but interesting. Of course The symptoms screeners they use are very subjective, so that is a major limitation.

5

jonathanrdt t1_ito689p wrote

How do we know it isn’t just coping? Learning strategies to work around weaknesses? Everyone does it as they mature.

2

funkme1ster t1_ito7bif wrote

I'm not a neurologist but I am good friends with some. As I understand, the difference is that coping mechanisms are superficial whereas neuroplasticity is ingrained.

That is to say it's outwardly the same thing, but employing coping strategies over time results in rewiring neural pathways to the point they're not "coping" strategies so much as your brain perceiving it as the normal, correct response to that stimulus. The same mechanism as practice driving muscle memory.

3

jonathanrdt t1_ito7nla wrote

Oh okay, so what begins as willful coping becomes new rote behavior because the circuitry actually does change?

2

funkme1ster t1_ito8t1s wrote

Aye.

If you've ever looked into modern prosthetics (which you should because they're neat), there is a lot of cool new tech that uses nerve sensing to detect signals and map them onto responses. IE a person thinks about moving their arm, the sensors read nerve signals in the amputated limb, and can map out "this signal pattern = this movement pattern". The person practices and over time is able to train their body to behave in concert such that the signals they send out are consistent and predictable. Neuroplasticity is just the process by which the brain maps those logic paths.

From the article, it would appear that these patients with ADHD, employed coping mechanisms, and over time those mechanisms facilitated neural remapping such that their "remission" is really just them retraining their brains to circumnavigate the problematic responses with the "corrected" responses to the point they didn't need to deliberately employ those mechanisms.

3