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nyxnars t1_ja2y6im wrote

Hasn't a link between the gut biome and humans mental state been proven already?

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NeitherCook5241 t1_ja3skha wrote

There is a connection for sure, but it is super complex and there is a lot more to discover about the biome and mental health. Scientists are beginning to view the biome as an organ due to its ability to produce neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin are produced (at least partially) in the gut. Many antidepressants that are prescribed are SSRIs, or selective serotonin re uptake inhibitors, which basically increase the availability of serotonin in the brain. By eating foods that foster serotonin production in the gut, theoretically more serotonin would be available for the brain, but it is not a totally linear correlation, as serotonin in the gut does not necessarily make it to the brain. However eating healthier (lots of plants, cultured foods, Omega-3 and Omega-6 fatty acids) is associated with improved gut and mental health. Eating fewer processed foods is also associated with better gut and mental health. It’s interesting though that many people eat comfort food to cope with grief/stress/trauma and then feel guilty about it (myself included). There’s also research that shows cortisol (a stress hormone) can negatively impact gut health, which may be why some people feel the need to evacuate their bowls when they’re scared (colloquial known as “shitting one’s pants”). It is interesting to think that all these little microbes, hormones, and neurotransmitters are somehow partially pulling the strings in our decision making, and yet the compilation of this molecular symphony is perceived as free will. This concludes my ted talk.

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peer-reviewed-myopia t1_ja6fguo wrote

>By eating foods that foster serotonin production in the gut, theoretically more serotonin would be available for the brain, but it is not a totally linear correlation, as serotonin in the gut does not necessarily make it to the brain.

Serotonin produced in the gut does not make it to the brain. Serotonin that circulates in the periphery functions more like a hormone and does not cross the blood-brain barrier to impact "serotonin available for the brain".

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>There’s also research that shows cortisol (a stress hormone) can negatively impact gut health, which may be why some people feel the need to evacuate their bowls when they’re scared (colloquial known as “shitting one’s pants”).

Where are you getting your information? This whole comment is full of misinformation.

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Edit:

Thanks u/volcanoesarecool. I can't respond because I was blocked for whatever reason, but I appreciate the info.

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volcanoesarecool t1_ja6v8c7 wrote

The cortisol pooping thing comes up in Sapolsky's work on stress, though it's more like "we don't got time/resources to digest food right now, evacuate the bowels and run away from the tiger!" in response to extreme stress than an ongoing situation iirc.

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InTheEndEntropyWins t1_ja35hf4 wrote

Yep, I think all of this has already been known/established.

I was hoping by link I was hoping someone established a causal link, but this study is just more correlation.

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UgeMan t1_ja3prxk wrote

Heard the other day that introducing probiotics to diet shows something crazy like 65% of people feel mood boosting. Gut health/function and mental health seemingly go hand in hand for many folk

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ciclidae t1_ja4jzef wrote

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/probiotics-what-you-need-to-know "However, in most instances, we still don’t know which probiotics are helpful and which are not. We also don’t know how much of the probiotic people would have to take or who would be most likely to benefit. Even for the conditions that have been studied the most, researchers are still working toward finding the answers to these questions."

There are a lot of studies cited below, and most of them non clear about that relation.

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OrphanDextro t1_ja5bdvs wrote

Thank you, I feel like the relationship between the gut biome and the brain have gotten mighty simplistic in the public’s eye.

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wmblathers t1_ja3jt24 wrote

Yes, though it's not at all clear that IBS is a microbiome issue (though I wouldn't be surprised by more correlations there, too).

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Seated_Heats t1_ja6d9wg wrote

It doesn’t necessarily stem from the microbiome, but a flare up likely ends up affecting it. This study doesn’t surprise me from an anecdotal standpoint.

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optoph t1_ja57lwv wrote

Three years ago I weighed 122lbs. Adult male, average height, late-50s. I skipped breakfast and often skipped lunch due to ever-present nausea. Went through antacids like candy. Had IBS, reflux and other issues. Prescribed beta-blockers and domperidone which helped a lot with the nausea but not with the weight loss or appetite.

I'm a "Type A" personality but am not a particularly smart or talented person so I made up for it by working hard and worrying about my efforts. I was successful and was often recognized for my achievements but was ultimately laid off, along with my work friends in the same unit, due to economic reasons after almost 25 years with this organization. Finding work in 2020 with COVID was not possible. Essentially forced to retire. It took a while to adjust to the change in lifestyle but I'm quite fine with it now.

Without the stress of working I've gained 30lbs since being laid off. I can eat more meals and am now at a normal weight for my age and height. I now realize to what degree stress and anxiety were the cause of my digestive and IBS problems. I have a great doctor but I now think she was treating the symptoms and not the cause but I am who I am. I wouldn't have accepted changing my personal work ethic and effort even if it meant affecting my health. I realize now exactly what my personal traits were doing to me. I should have learned to chill and accept less than perfect.

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Ok-Cut4890 t1_ja6v4p1 wrote

I didn't have to work, don't have a beat myself up mental attitude. I've had IBS symptoms since I was a baby. Got Viberzi and all the IBS symptoms went away within an hour. For me it has always been anxiety, allergies, sleeplessness, dehydration are caused by IBS. The viberzi made it all go away instantly. I don't have anxiety to work through, my gut biome fixed itself in about a month.

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E-GREY28 t1_ja7jehs wrote

I have IBS, I’ve never heard of Viberzi and it’s never been offered to me by any doctors. Did you have to ask for it? Or was it offered to you?

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millahhhh t1_ja35o8b wrote

Don't love the title here, the connection between IBS and mental health has been understood for a while, it's even been in the treatment guidelines (Rome) since like 2015. This may be a slight refinement or deeper characterization (as most research is), but the title implies some sort of revelation when it clearly is not

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SaltZookeepergame691 t1_ja3m41n wrote

Right, title is crap. The paper itself cites lots of earlier studies and papers reporting on the links.

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amitchellcoach t1_ja5zbaz wrote

Agreed. Also, as Dr. Michael Gershon points out in his book ‘the second brain’ living with irritable bowl disease is likely to make someone anxious, depressed, and perhaps suicidal depending on severity. It’s important not to read too much into the connection without proposed mechanisms of modulation.

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jadrad t1_ja4cz2n wrote

I had major depression and a full blown general anxiety disorder in my 20s. For a long time I suspected there was a dietary link, as heavy stress would result in days diarrhea. Also had a bunch of other symptoms like silent reflux (that wore down my tooth enamel), frequent brain fog, food coma feeling after lunch some days, eczema, and arthritic pain.

The reflux eventually became chronic causing throat pain, and after not being content to just treat the symptoms with stomach acid blockers, I found some anecdotes on Internet forums that it could be the symptoms of food intolerances so I tried elimination dieting.

After a few months all my health problems began to fade, and after narrowing down and removing the trigger foods, they all resolved - no more brain fog, no more reflux, no more arthritis, and no more anxiety!

The last one is amazing, because anxiety up to that point was just the background noise of my life. The constant pit in the stomach, and adrenal exhaustion. The wild fight or flight response in any stressful situation.

I now know what “normal” feels like and it’s amazing! Genuine peace.

If you have anxiety or depression, I cannot recommend enough investigating into whether food intolerances might be the cause.

Edit - to answer some of the questions below:

My elimination diet was very strict at the start - I cut the foods I ate down to a few staples (oats, eggs, pea protein powder, rice, tuna, salmon, bananas, apples, water) until the reflux and gut pain died down, then stuck with it for a few months longer to give my gut some time to heal before starting to reintroduce different foods again. I probably would have added bone broth to the mix if I ate chicken/beef as I've read that is good for healing a damaged gut.

The annoying thing about food intolerances is that unlike allergies there's usually no immediate reaction, and sometimes it can take days or weeks of eating something before the symptoms start to become noticeable and the cycle of chronic inflammation kicks into overdrive again.

That made it quite a slow process to narrow down the culprits - it took about a year and a half of introducing and removing things to narrow them down, but the foods that trigger the inflammation cycle for me are: dairy (not only lactose, but the dairy proteins, dairy fat, and includes goat milk and other animal milks), gluten (wheat, barley, rye), amaranth, millet, and sorghum.

Soy doesn't seem to cause any gut pain or reflux for me, but does causes pain and inflammation of my thyroid, so I avoid that too.

On the grain side, I can tolerate oats, corn, rice, quinoa, buckwheat (it's a seed, not related to wheat), and a few other exotic grains like Teff just fine.

Early on in the elimination dieting process there were other foods that would set off gut pain and reflux - citrus, tomatoes, caffeine (tea, coffee, cocoa) being some of them - but now that my gut has healed I've noticed I can eat them regularly again and things are fine.

It's been about 5 years now since I fixed my gut and it's amazing how all of the spiraling health problems I was facing have cleared up completely. Even though it does suck not to be able to enjoy things like dairy ice-cream, French pastries, pizza, and the convenience of not having to scour menus before choosing a place to eat out, thankfully there are a lot of gluten free and dairy free options nowadays, and it's all worth it to have good health again!

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Choogz t1_ja4f90d wrote

So which intolerance did you end up discovering with the elimination approach? I’m curious to work out my maybe trigger foods equally

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basementreality t1_ja4vh09 wrote

Not them but check out the FODMAP diet as a starting point as that really helped me. I worked out I had a fructan intolerance.

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sciguy52 t1_ja5gh70 wrote

Not OP but FODMAP's for me too. A lot of people think it is gluten but wheat is high in FODMAP's too. And wheat wasn't my only issue. Fruit like apples, plums, oranges would do it, all FODMAPs. One thing that is helpful is taking anti-gas enzyme. Can help a lot with the digestive issues.

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orlin002 t1_ja5f4dk wrote

I would love to know what foods you cut out.

I am in a very similar situation right now and my doctors either are at a loss or don't want to have anything to do with me. I've been suffering with joint inflammation problems for over a year and a half with no solutions. I've recently been trying to adjust my diet to see if anything changes but haven't had success yet. Some insight into your food experiments would really help me.

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sciguy52 t1_ja5gwlm wrote

Look up FODMAPs and see if those foods correlate with your issues. They did for mine. Also highly recommend anti-gas enzymes which help with digestion.

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who_loves_you_ t1_ja4vttg wrote

Yes. What correlations did you find? If you can’t pinpoint them. What, in general, did you cut out?

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harrietlegs t1_ja4pdq7 wrote

What were the foods?

If I had to guess its likely: gluten,and corn. Or even sugar.

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TrixoftheTrade t1_ja52hu1 wrote

Not OP, but one of the most triggering foods for me was artificial sugars.

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hobobarbie t1_ja5dhet wrote

Finding a root cause is a fair thing to consider, but in the meanwhile those acid blockers are seriously impactful in reducing risk of esophageal cancer so…maybe do both?

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Mufflestv t1_ja5d52z wrote

What was the food ? Just interested if it was the classic gluten/dairy/sugar/processed/etc or something specific you would never guess

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sciguy52 t1_ja5gqbb wrote

For me it was FODMAP's which also are found in wheat. So not gluten. Also found in fruits and other foods. I have found anti-gas enzymes to be helpful with these foods and digestion.

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morticiannecrimson t1_ja5pl27 wrote

So what does your diet now consist of and what foods did you eliminate? I’m quite certain I have gluten intolerance and I do feel anxiety after eating, and I definitely have lactose intolerance, but I just don’t know what to eat. All the lists include what not to eat but what’s left? Sadly also fruits make my stomach painful.

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kiahuna t1_ja5tpig wrote

I may have missed this somewhere below, but there are tests that can show which foods react with immune system (IgG). My last one was from US Biotek. I avoid the foods that I react with the most and there are many. This, along with low FODMAPs help keep the inflammation down.

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SlackerNinja717 t1_ja4d2rn wrote

Which causes which, though? I think I'd be depressed and anxious if I was constantly dealing with pain and malfunctioning bowels.

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MMAwannabe t1_ja593e5 wrote

As someone who suffered with it badly for a few years, dealing with many doctors for it would also depress you.

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MrsMurphysChowder t1_ja5ff9i wrote

As someone who is in an inexplicable flare, rn, after having had it under control, any aspect of it is depressing.

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MewgDewg t1_ja7hzsa wrote

Freakin preach. Been going through doctors like I go through antacids - rapidly and to little relief. It feeds into the stress of having to deal with intestinal issues, which exacerbates it.

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sciguy52 t1_ja5hany wrote

So I suffer depression and have IBS-D. Whenever I would have the IBS-D flair up my mood hits a very, very low point. When I got control of the IBS-D it stopped me from hitting those really low lows. Didn't stop the depression though. It got to the point where I could tell an IBS-D flair was going to happen later in the day just based on my low mood waking up.

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Amphy64 t1_ja6z5k8 wrote

That's interesting, I was just saying yesterday that my mood on waking up depended on how well I was going to be before I really quite knew that. What I have is looking like gut mobility issues due to spinal injury. I'm pretty keen on the inflammation theories given how much my anxiety unexpectedly improved on anti-inflammatory medication.

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sciguy52 t1_ja71ghi wrote

Yeah for me I worked really hard to deal with the IBS-D to get it under control and I have. Really helps avoid ultra -low mood days. Wish it cured it entirely, but sadly no. But helps me avoid the very worst of it. But on IBS-D days my mood was exceptionally baaaaaad. One of the most significant things I was able to do to make the depression better although not perfect. Don't mean to hit you with TMI but I have also noted that if I had really bad gas that caused some cramping (but no D) could also hit the mood bad. So I take anti-gas enzymes each time I eat something which works to both prevent gas and help with the IBS-D as well. It is interesting to note the inflammation aspect. When I get an IBS-D episode, not only does the mood crater even before the D starts, but I would notice sore joints and muscles too so it was sending out some inflammation signal that caused joint aches (I do not have arthritis BTW) and muscle aches. I wish i cold do special blood tests to see what sort of inflammatory mediator is being produced that causes the aches. Can't afford that level of testing to find out though.

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E-GREY28 t1_ja7jlgg wrote

What enzymes do you take if you don’t mind me asking?

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sciguy52 t1_ja7mypf wrote

These are regular anti-gas enzymes you find in walmart or whatever. Beano is one brand (expensive) but much cheaper is Equate anti-gas enzymes. NOTE: this is not simethicone. One the Equate it is Gas and Bloating Prevention and below that you will see it say Food Enzyme Dietary Supplement in smaller letters. On the back you will see this is alpha galactosidase enzyme. They have a bottle that looks very similar to the enzyme but below will say simethicone, you do not want that.

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roccmyworld t1_ja4xiyh wrote

We know already that IBS is a functional health disorder. It is caused by poor mental health. That doesn't mean the symptoms aren't real. But it does mean that they can be dramatically improved by working on mental health.

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wmblathers t1_ja53b6z wrote

>It is caused by poor mental health.

It is not. There are many theories about the origins of IBS, and mental health is only one item on a rather long list. It's not even near the top of many lists.

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SlackerNinja717 t1_ja52kul wrote

So it's proven that mental symptoms come first is what you're saying?

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whoknowshank t1_ja55l25 wrote

I’d love to see the research that proves that, not just research that suggests it’s possible

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[deleted] t1_ja2ze61 wrote

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[deleted] t1_ja3ju7t wrote

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[deleted] t1_ja407f7 wrote

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Toytles t1_ja3yanc wrote

Having IBS will make you consider killing yourself. For real.

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MarijuanaWeed420 t1_ja4excm wrote

Same with eczema. Having your skin itch, crack, and bleed constantly really ramps up the suicidal thoughts. Luckily the skin cream my doc gave me made it go away and it hasn’t returned for almost a decade now.

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_skank_hunt42 t1_ja5155o wrote

I have severe psoriasis. I’ve tried almost everything and the results are always extremely temporary. My psoriasis fuels my depression and anxiety something awful.

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sadi89 t1_ja5v12s wrote

Psoriasis is so awful. I was depressed when I had it, and there is nothing like not being able to stand being in your own skin mentally, while your own skin doesn't seem to be able to stand being on you. It's horrible.

Hopefully you clear up soon. I don't have any useful tips to give you. I had sever guttate that became uncontrolled and developed into erythrodermic psoriasis. I got put on an oral steroid for a month, my psoriasis cleared up and hasn't really come back.

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_skank_hunt42 t1_ja5x2nt wrote

Wow I had never heard of erythrodermic psoriasis. I just looked it up and that sounds terrifying. Google says you can develop pneumonia and die from it. Fortunately I haven’t experienced that before, though most of my body is covered in psoriasis. I have plaque, guttate, inverse and nail psoriasis. Steroid ointments do help but I develop a tolerance to them quickly and then they stop working until I stop using them for a while. Phototherapy works better than anything else I’ve tried but my insurance doesn’t cover it so I can’t afford it.

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sadi89 t1_ja5yy2r wrote

Phototherapy was helping me too, but not enough to get it down from sever. I don’t know about you but my biggest issue with topicals was applying them carefully when so much of my body was covered in tiny plaques. It was painstaking.

I was lucky with my erythrodeemic psoriasis. I was only 24 at the time which I’m sure helped. Staying hydrated and getting treatment is absolutely key. Luckily it’s pretty easy to notice, because your skin gets red and hot and starts peeling like a snake. And even if you have skin issues, it’s a thing that you look at and go “huh, I should probably call someone”. It’s the only time I’ve ever had a same day derm appointment and I think it was at like 6pm…which is really late in the evening for dermatology

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_skank_hunt42 t1_ja61k7b wrote

Applying the topicals is absolutely painstaking. The easiest method I have found is to mix the steroid ointment with lotion (I use one with urea because it helps soften the plaques really well) and then slather my whole body with it. I do it at night and wrap my arms and legs in plastic wrap to keep it in place. Sometimes I’ll even wrap my abdomen up too but that one is hard to do on my own so I don’t do it too often. When I apply it to my scalp I will wear a swim cap over it all night. It looks and feels ridiculous but it’s the only way to treat my scalp.

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sadi89 t1_ja67asj wrote

I had a flair of sebopsoriais in 2020 that is in its last bit of healing now. It was mostly on my scalp/face. What finally helped clear it up was t/sal shampoo which helped soften everything/remove plaque build up, and after that I’d use t-gel. After the shower blow dry my hair and then apply my topicals. The T/gel and t/sal both worked ok on their own, but when I started to use the t/sal followed by the t/gel is when I started to see a huge difference. My theory is the t/sal helped soften and remove plaque build up enough that the tgel and medications could actually get to the problems areas to treat it. And I’m sure the extra 5 min in the shower letting the t/sal sit also helped soften things.

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MarijuanaWeed420 t1_ja598j4 wrote

You may want to look into something called EXO|E, I know someone that had severe psoriasis their entire life and they used this and it cleared it right up. It’s still being studied but it works damn well from what I’ve seen personally

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_skank_hunt42 t1_ja59u8x wrote

Interesting, it looks like that product is plant stem cells. I’ll do more research, thanks!

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ladyfireflyx t1_ja6kwzk wrote

Lucky me I have both! However found an injectable non steroid medication that seems to be working, although they are the most painful injections I've ever had to take. It's still worth it to be able to sleep at night without feeling like I'm going to rip my skin off.

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Quindizzle444 t1_ja3m0ko wrote

Doesn’t seem surprising. When your entire life revolves around the bathroom and there’s a huge social stigma related to pooping and the bathroom, things can get stressful. Even family and friends can only be so understanding sometimes.

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AbheyBloodmane t1_ja4fk7f wrote

As someone with IBS I can attest to these findings. They both tend to be cyclical. Whenever my IBS flares up I become more depressed and anxious. The more depressed and anxious I am, the more intestinal issues I have.

It's so bad I am unable to work outside of the home.

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Alon945 t1_ja4lj51 wrote

What would be more interesting to know - how do we fix our gut biome in a way that directly benefits our mental health

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MattsAwesomeStuff t1_ja6kojo wrote

Fecal Transplants.

Yes seriously.

It's exactly what you think. Healthy person's poop in a blender, pour into a bag, enema. (Or, if you can hold your nausea, a nasal tube that goes directly to your stomach, to hit the upper digestive tract too).

If it works, it works fuckin' instantly. You now have a healthy person's guy biome.

Also, an instant cure for c-diff poisoning and a bunch of other stuff.

Probably the lowest tech, most massively impactful treatment we've discovered for tons of stuff.

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Ceesaid t1_ja4vohz wrote

I mean, extreme pain, bloating and having problems in the bathroom that doesn’t have an easily recognized cause, which means no real possibility of it stopping, would cause most people anxiety and depression, which then contributes to the unaliving ideation, but it’s nice that they’re actually acknowledging that there’s a problem!

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_theperegrinefalcon t1_ja3jomd wrote

This is something that has been established as far as I'm aware. One of the etiology for IBS includes anxiety disorders, and treatment for IBS involves antidepressants like SSRIs and TCAs(based on the type of IBS).

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FoghornFarts t1_ja6tft1 wrote

Wait, you mean that having an autoimmune disease that isn't well understood and causes pain, horrible digestive issues, and severe food restrictions that might constantly change and can take years to figure out would cause people severe mental anguish?

Shocker.

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Massochistic t1_ja4y5pm wrote

This has already been known. My IBS is triggered by severe anxiety. Luckily I don’t have anxiety anymore

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runsslow t1_ja5ptl4 wrote

As someone with IBS: this makes sense. Life is pretty hard sometimes when you are afraid of everything you eat.

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n0budd33 t1_ja6f4yh wrote

When you have bloody diarrhea for months at a time, you get to feeling like death couldn’t be much worse than life.

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Wolfwoods_Sister t1_ja74zef wrote

As someone who’s stomach has tried to kill her several times (my worst when I dropped to 88lbs), I can absolutely say that there’s very little safe space inside your head when you’re overpowered by ice-cold shredding pain and vivid nausea every day.

I have a high pain tolerance and I’m mentally resilient, but no, there’s no way to not be depressed or furious or anxious when your flesh suit keep getting hit with the cattle prods.

I take Imipramine among other things (including probiotics and mineral pills for deficiencies) just to control the lightning in my nervous system.

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LeaTheTrippyHermit t1_ja3zj96 wrote

There's research making this connection going back decades.

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AlxPHD t1_ja59u9g wrote

Almost like the gut-brain-axis is a thing :P

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chzygorditacrnch t1_ja5oi48 wrote

I've had stomach problems my entire life, and had every test run, and was sent to psychologists as a kid because they figured it could only be related to trauma as to why I have so many stomach issues. And it has always been definitely true that I've always been though alot of trauma.

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AromaticSalts1990 t1_ja5swxe wrote

I've also noticed a huge amount of people with neuro disorders such as tourettes also have bowel issues.

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n3w4cc01_1nt t1_ja4dbif wrote

makes sense that having a spontaneous urge to use the bathroom would cause all that

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RVK2005 t1_ja4yuir wrote

Uh… I thought we already knew this

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kimthealan101 t1_ja66do2 wrote

There is a link between autism and IBS

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Cryptolution t1_ja6sau2 wrote

This research confirms what I have been saying for over a decade. I used to deal with a lot of mental health issues in my twenties when my gut health was my worst. Chronic IBS.

I got my gut fixed with dietary changes and high grade probiotics (VSL#3) and slowly but surely my mental health got significantly better. It took years and I did a lot of work on myself, a lot of mindfulness practice and meditation, lots of physical exercise.

Now I'm an all-around solid dude who rarely has anxiety and has a suit of emotional armor +5 defense swarthy gear all around.

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PuerhRichard t1_ja6wv67 wrote

Do any of the somatic therapies like EMDR or EFT work for this?

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karlywarly73 t1_ja5hpds wrote

I've never been diagnosed with either IBS or anxiety. Only ADHD. I spent a tough year with a failing business and can attest to a link between anxiety (which I can surely self diagnose) and visits to the toilet 5 or 6 times a day combined with a dull ache in my bowels. Yes... it's anecdotal but I believe this study is on the mark.

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Iceteps t1_ja75ofp wrote

Chinese meridian already proved this

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SameLet2445 t1_ja6yz1z wrote

I found a cure for IBS through a simple supplementation. If anyone here is interested to know its name, DM me.

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