Submitted by MistWeaver80 t3_10sxm0r in science
I currently study infectious diseases and have done some work on SARS-CoV-2, maybe I can clear some things up for people.
The "holy grail" for a successful vaccine is triggering the generation of memory B cells and long lived plasma cells. Memory B cells are long-lived, quiescent cells that rapidly respond to antigen when activated and long lived plasma cells (LLPCs) constitutively secrete antibodies throughout their lives and can live as long as we do.
Studies have shown that SARS-CoV-2 vaccination elicit both T and B cell responses and generate antibodies but these antibodies seem to wane after 3-6 months; no LLPCs. This article is highlighting research that shows having natural infection + a vaccination seems to elicit an antibody response that is longer than only vaccination. Data in my lab shows 3-5 months vs 7-10 months and lots of papers I've seen show similar trends.
That's all this article is saying. I don't think it's trying to claim one method is better than another, or to get infected on purpose. We are all (in the field) trying to figure out how to trigger this differentiation into long lived plasma and memory B cells from a vaccine. There are tons of factors mediating this obstacle including mutation rate. Measles and polio, for example, are very stable viruses and don't mutate as often. This contributes to the success of their vaccines as they provide largely lifelong immunity.
Thanks for that insight. BTW the word you mean is elicit (to trigger) not illicit (illegal).
Whoops, thanks
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Oo that's a great question. That is hard to test since COVID exposure =/= COVID infection. COVID re-infection DOES effectively "reset" your antibody levels assuming you clear the virus after the 2nd infection. If I had to educated-guess this I would say at best, exposure within 7 months of cleared infection might sustain your antibody levels a little longer but again, if there are no memory B or LLPCs made, they will still wane.
After first infection your adaptive immune response generates B cells that make antibodies specifically for the virus. Those B cells and antibodies "stick around" for a while until they wane. Generally it seems your body has elevated and protective amounts of antibodies for at least 3 months after infection. Then they start to drop and GENERALLY after about 7-8 months. At this point a 2nd re-infection is not only possible but your body will react similarly to the first infection, although you should be able to clear it quicker.
This is a great question and I hope there is an immunologist here who can answer it. The follow up question would be then why are we not getting boosters every six months?
Partly why not X has to do with trial design early on. It’s harder to do large trials for different regimens. Most people believe the original two courses were too close together though.
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Are there any vaccines for viruses that generate durable LLPCs?
Yes, Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis) vaccine is good for decades.
Measles, smallpox and HPV vaccines also generate LLPCs and provide protection for a long time.
Tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis are all bacterial and a couple of the vaccines target the toxin produced by the bacteria and not the bacteria. I asked about viral vaccines.
Measles and HPV are either slow moving or long lasting infections which allow B cells to restart antibodies production over a week of so to stop the infection. They do not need LLPC to be fee effective.
HPV vaccination induces memory B cells^(1) and there are sustained serum antibodies that suggest LLPCs are also vaccine induced^(2)
I stand corrected. Thank you. The non correlation between B cells and circulating neutralizing antibodies is interesting and given what you are studying pretty exciting. The second paper probably quashes my theory that the sustained circulation was due to exposure since it seems to maintain a constant level after two years. Two questions if you have time. Is this a similar reason for the smallpox vaccination lasting as long as it does? A lot of the vaccines for bacterial infections target the toxins produced by the bacteria so I have mentally separated vaccines for virus snd bacteria into two columns about how long they are effective. Given what you have pointed out just how terrible of a general rule is this?
Once again thank you got taking the time to point out that I was wrong. I do appreciate it.
There hasn't been a ton of recent testing of the smallpox vaccine. We don't have smallpox challenge trials for example.
Smallpox immunity wanes after vaccination, but still can prevent infection and severe infection.
https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/7022/
Part of what makes the smallpox vaccine effective, is that smallpox is not circulating in the population and mutating. Smallpox is also a DNA virus, and DNA viruses tend to have fewer mutations, so vaccines continue to work for them, rather than the flu which is RNA and mutates like crazy. It's probably most effective to think about the antigen that the vaccine is training your body to target, and the delivery mechanism for that.
mRNA vaccines are really going to change the vaccine landscape.
Smallpox isn’t that long. I think it is 5-10 years.
Mutation matters, but some rapidly mutating viruses like rabies are easy to immunize for long periods while some slowly mutating viruses are hard.
I have friends who keep asking why we don’t just make all vaccines last for a really long time. I always point out that if you could actually figure out how to do that, you’d win the Nobel prize tomorrow. Also worth noting that there was serious discussion of quarterly vaccines for flu prior to COVID(primarily for at-risk)
Would vaccination type matter? I’ve seen some data suggesting the adenovirus (jnj or astra) platforms do generate memory B cells and llpcs compared to the mRNA platforms.
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Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed explanation
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How long last the immunity response of non-vaccinated infected?
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No, you absolutely should get boosted as soon as you are eligible. Just because the window from natural protection is still good doesn’t mean you should skip out on boosters even if for only a couple of months. This pandemic is still raging because many people question the rules, have doubts in the brightest scientific minds of our generation and do anything but get vaccinated. You are doing good, but now is not the time to delay life saving treatment. This goes for anyone. Get your boosters! Every moment you wait is another unnecessary death. We have the tools to beat this thing let’s do it!!
How long does natural immunity last ? Or do they only study the combination because it's vaccine funded ? If the combination was to last 8 months and natural immunity is 6 months then your adding 2 months with the vaccine ?
Assuming you survived getting the disease the first time, while unvaccinated.
Personally, didn't think it was worth the risk.
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It takes around 70,000 MRNA vaccinations to be administered prevent one hospitalisation. They probably survived.
I'd be curious as to see the math for that. It may be accurate, but its a pretty weird stat to be using, even if it is. Which I am doubting.
I'm seeing stats saying roughly 6 million hospitalizations so far, and roughly 100 million cases.
There have been roughly 670 million vaccine doses. If it took 70,000 doses to prevent a hospitalization, that would mean the vaccine has only prevented roughly 10,000 hospitalizations vs the 6 million total. That doesn't remotely add up, considering most of the research puts the odds of hospitalization at about 10x higher for the unvaccinated.
I'll gladly look at your source material if you want to provide it.
A hospitalisation doesn't necessarily imply a near-fatal or fatal result; it could include just supplying supplementary oxygen.
here are the numbers from the UK government:
The number of vaccinations required to prevent one hospitalisation can go as high as 210,400 for the 30 to 39 not-at-risk age group.
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Just rewatched I, Robot and you’re one of the dumbest smart people. You reiterated OP with a bunch of scientific lingo. You reiterated the narrative of the last two years that “science” is savior while reinforcing the fact you have not yet found the “holy grail”. And your holy grail for a successful vaccine is still not as effective as natural immunity. It’s a noble goal and o appreciate your efforts to get there. But it’s fucked up to portray the Covid vaccine effort as an advancement when it doesn’t even match up to natural immunity/defenses.
I think the funniest part of this to me is that you're getting your philosophy from the movie adaptation of I, Robot
And the second funniest thing is reading your name in regard to your comment this is guy getting his philosophy from I, Robot.
Explain that first sentence, please.
I double goddamn guarantee you that the writer of the book wouldn’t be on your side of this weird antivax stuff. He was one of the smartest English speaking humans alive in my lifetime.
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