Submitted by AphidGenocide t3_z79jke in rva
icecreamfist t1_iy62htg wrote
Reply to comment by J-Colio in No criminal charges for owner of pit bull that killed 88 year old woman by AphidGenocide
Sorry, no dog should ever be off leash in public, or non-fenced yard.
I don't know how many times I've walked my dog and owners claim they "have full recall control", and "come through it's alright!", but they don't and their dogs charged my dog. It's taken a lot of money and countless hours trying to rectify the stress that it put on my dog, which manifested as fear aggression.
If a dog is staring toward another dog or person, their heart rate is already rapidly rising, and once they bark their heart rate is already at 130bpm and climbing, and it takes at minimum 30 mins to bring it back down, and no amount of commands, treats, or punishment is going to bring the heart rate down any quicker. This is where a leash helps, you can physically remove the dog away from the trigger.
I've had a certified animal behaviorist ( Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist board certified, grad degree, NIH experience, etc), strongly opine that people should not walk their dogs off leash in public.
Trying to walk around in public with your dog off leash, even if trained, is literally pushing your dog's tolerance to manage stress and the owners training to the edge. It's human ego trying to display dominance. It's unnecessary and risky.
ThrowawayAntelopes t1_iy662xi wrote
I share the frustration with the many many many people who let their completely uncontrollable dogs off leash. But it's just not reasonable to never allow dogs to be off leash in public if they're trained well. If you're not hurting anyone you're not hurting anyone. Why doesn't the quality of life of the dogs enter into the equation at any point? They're supposed to never leave their yard unless they're tied to a rope all the time? Ridiculous and cruel.
My dog is off leash all the time and I never ever have had her run up to other people or dogs because she is actually trained (plus an ecollar back-up just in case). She doesn't get stressed about it, she just knows to ignore others. The real problem is that people are totally clueless about how to train and take care of their dogs. Plus they get breeds they cannot handle, especially pit bulls. I still instinctually don't trust off-leash pit bulls because they've run up to us and attacked my dog so many times.
Edit: yall are such hiveminded retards lol. The downvote button isn't for disagreement
icecreamfist t1_iy6862k wrote
My point is that a dog is never trained well enough to be reasonably let off leash in public. The breed does not matter - I've had golden retrievers, mutts, doodles, golden doodles, chihuahuas, and all manner of purebred dogs of all sorts charge my dog. The only common thing among them - they weren't on a leash.
Do you know what all of them say? "I'm so sorry! They've never done that before!"
Like I mentioned, those who walk their dogs off leash in public are just ego tripping - "look how well I have my dog under control!". It's actually full of human arrogance. Also e-collars are corrective based training, and lead to negative reinforcement or aversive training, which is not as effective as positive reinforcement - even though the study included leading professions within ecollar industry. Study concluded that e-collar did not create greater deterrent for disobedience, and unnecessary for effective recall training. Positive reward training is superior.
Also see my already stated comment about heart rate, and how no amount of correction, treats, or punishment can bring the heart rate back to resting on a dog - only time can.
You can still get a lunge line leash, which gives your dog tons of free space. I know there are lunge line leashes that go up to 100ft! Are you saying your dog needs 100ft? That means you are way too far to pay attention to a command or recall, even if your dog is well trained. With a lunge at least you will have physical control.
Why should I always be stressed out when trying to walk my dog in public around the block? Why can't my dog have a nice walk undisturbed and able to stretch her legs? Leashing your dog doesn't hurt anyone, and in fact it is a net positive to everyone. Walks with leashes are also training / exercise on top of a physical exercise. It also gives people the comfort of not having to walk around with dog spray or a bat around the neighborhood. It sure would allow me to walk my dog more than half a block.
A dog is happy when they are loved, cared for, and stimulated. Not every dog needs to run around in a 5 acre park, untethered. Just 20 minutes of sniffing is the equivalent of an hours walk of enrichment for every dog.
Some dogs like working dogs need "work", and that needs to be simulated and letting them run around isn't the same. The idea that a leash is somehow demeaning to a dog divorces reality that a dog is an animal. The better we can see that, the better we can care for them, and still be responsible to our neighbors.
J-Colio t1_iy6bqnw wrote
>My point is that a dog is never trained well enough to be reasonably let off leash in public.
Police dogs, service dogs, search and rescue dogs, military dogs, etc.... all disagree.
Dogs can 100% be trained off leash. Being truly off-leash trained is one of the epitomes of dog training. It is not easy. It takes like 5 hours a day, every day, for months or even years.
Most people don't have that time, commitment, or training, but it's possible.
>It sure would allow me to walk my dog more than half a block.
Bruh... Do you need help? My dog's extremely well socialized if you need help. I walk him 2-5 hours a day. If you're being literal with that... That's sad for your dog.
>A dog is happy when they are loved, cared for, and stimulated. Not every dog needs to run around in a 5 acre park, untethered. Just 20 minutes of sniffing is the equivalent of an hours walk of enrichment for every dog.
No! A tired dog is a good dog. A tired dog is a happy dog. I have a Bassett hound, a breed known for being chill with being lazy; he lives for going on long adventures! Your statement is purely wrong, and if you try that with any working breed, then you're going to have a neurotic and uncontrollable mess. Dogs bred to work on farms for 12 straight hours a day hearding cattle aren't going to bat an eyelash at 20 minutes of sniffing. Dogs bred to run the Iditarod will literally roll their eyes at that. Dogs bred to hunt lions in the Sahara will end up hunting things they're not supposed to if they're only given 20 minutes of stimulation. A 7 week puppy needs that much stimulation because their body energy is going into growing. A fully grown dog will end up a mess with only 20 minutes. That's so sad. Dogs aren't cats. You can't set it and forget it.
icecreamfist t1_iy6erxd wrote
Point taken about service dogs, rescue dogs, etc. However, disagree with police dogs. Sometimes the police officers themselves cannot control the police dog.
>Bruh... Do you need help? My dog's extremely well socialized if you need help. I walk him 2-5 hours a day. If you're being literal with that... That's sad for your dog.
Yep being literal with that - my neighborhood has a lot of unleashed dogs. It's why I paid for a fence to play with my dog, and have to literally walk her up and down my street and watch for dogs, or walk her in off hours, or take her on Cary St or something that I know will be busy and dogs will be leashed.
It wasn't as bad a few years ago, but a lot of new people have moved into the neighborhood and unleashed dogs have gotten worse. For instance, someone was walking around with an unleashed pit on my block just this past week. My new neighbors literally play with their dogs unleashed in the street, etc.
We worked with a behaviorist and put in hours a day with a for 3 years now with my dog just to boost her confidence and lower her stress and to be somewhat normal like she was when she was a pup, and bad encounters with other dogs or humans sets her back again.
My statement 20 minutes of sniffing wasn't to say that it fully accounts for all of a dogs needs, but that mental stimulation has just as important enrichment as physical stimulation. But yes dogs need all the physical activity they can get, which is why I think if everyone leashed their dogs in public, every dog can get the exercise and be outdoors to enjoy and all that fun stuff.
ThrowawayAntelopes t1_iy69r6o wrote
Lmao what? You ran into a lot of dogs that were not under control and therefore there are no dogs that can be kept under control? And it follows from the fact that dogs are animals that it doesn't substantially diminish their quality of life to be on a leash all the time? You're drawing absurd over-generalizations. I've had a lot of owners say the same thing to me, and they were all idiots that didn't know how to control their dog properly.
It's also pretty stupid to think that a 100ft leash is going to prevent a dog attack. If a dog can't be trusted in public off leash then they can't be trusted in public on a 100ft leash. There's no way you can actually react fast enough and with enough force to pull a dog back 100ft when an incident starts. But using a leash like this is logistically out of the question for so many reasons, it would wrap around everything and probably be more of a safety hazard (tripping, etc.) than just having a dog off-leash. Especially in the woods and in the river. A leash like that only makes sense if you're just trying to keep a dog from running away.
Anyway, I will always prioritize my dog's well-being over the precious and puritanical feelings of paranoids. (And there is no possible world where she meets her exercise and stimulation needs sniffing things on lead all day.)
icecreamfist t1_iy69xvl wrote
I stated dogs should be leashed in public or non fenced in yard. Never said all the time.
But you're just showing you only care about yourself. Got it.
ThrowawayAntelopes t1_iy6a49c wrote
No really, tell me, do you think a 100 foot leash would have saved this elderly woman? Or are you not an idiot?
icecreamfist t1_iy6b72m wrote
I don't believe I've ever prescribed 100ft lunge line leashes as a way to prevent dog attacks. I merely stated lunge lines are an option if you must give your dog more line on a walk. I just pointed out they can even go up to 100ft.
But if the dog was on a leash and under the owner's physical control, certainly the woman would not be dead. Since, the only reason the dog stopped attacking the woman was because the owner physically moved the dog away. That is what a leash is really good for - to physically move your dog if needed.
Unrelated to this conversation, I'm most certainly an idiot. Ask my wife :)
ThrowawayAntelopes t1_iy6bita wrote
In that case, sounds like we're in perfect agreement.
icecreamfist t1_iy6c85y wrote
Yes, I think I hit a nerve here and I apologize. I think we may even be talking about completely different scenarios. You may be taking your dog off leash in a private giant field where no one is probably around, or a dog park designated for dogs running around etc where all participants expect and agree to dogs running off leash together.
Which is the opposite of what I'm talking about, which is trying to walk my dog down the end of the block.
oh_hello_rva t1_iy7u225 wrote
Thank you, u/icecreamfist. You were the hero I needed today.
The entitlement is so strong in these people who want to put their preference / convenience over other human's and pet's ability to simply exist.
The worst part is that they still want to argue about it like it's up for debate, when it's the law and simply part of the social contract when you live in Richmond. If they don't like it, they should move somewhere that doesn't have leash laws.
MalibuFatz t1_iy6a77e wrote
I would argue that this dog wasn’t hurting anyone until it was. Then it was too late, and an old lady was dead. Hell of a price to pay.
ThrowawayAntelopes t1_iy6arty wrote
You didn't say anything that I disagreed with so what are you even trying to do
Antique-Zucchini3250 t1_iy8cev7 wrote
the implication is that *your precious doggo* will not be violent until she is, and then it will be too late.
ergo: you should keep her leashed before we find out how violent she can be.
ThrowawayAntelopes t1_iyan44w wrote
It's a matter of risk. Sure, there's some distant possible world where she hurts somebody. But there's also a distant possible world where my 17 year old son attacks someone in the park. Does this miniscule risk mean I should keep my teenager on a leash in public? Of course not. You guys are just not thinking clearly about the role of risk in public life. There is functionally no risk of my dog, or my teenager, attacking someone in the park. That's sufficient to have them off leash.
3FoxInATrenchcoat t1_iy967e6 wrote
My incredibly friendly, people-loving herding dog mix suddenly and inexplicably nipped a jogger out of nowhere one day. She’s one of the best behaved dogs you’d ever meet-listens immediately, aims to please, very bright and calm. She had never displayed that behavior in her life, and at 7 years old, in a completely random moment, she went out of her way in an instant to nip the thigh of a jogger. She was off leash and I was inexcusably in the wrong. This was the thousandth time we had gone on an off-leash walk and probably the thousandth jogger she had ever passed, and for whatever reason she acted in an unpredictable and unprovoked manner. Thankfully the jogger needed nothing more than a tetanus shot and doxycycline, and even more thankfully he didn’t press any charges against me or call the police. I paid for his clinical care and RACC put her on a two week probation quarantine/house arrest. I’ll never again assume that my dog is not capable of unpredictable behavior again, or that I’m not beholden to the same laws as others.
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