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EducatorBig6648 t1_j67itgw wrote

Reply to comment by jank_ram in Cosmic nihilism, existential joy | Human consciousness, and our need for meaning in a meaningless world, is the source of both tragic pessimism and the intense joy we take in life. by IAI_Admin

"Value" is a myth.

"Should" is a myth.

You're looking at "why" wrong. "Why" is asking for a fellow organism's motive.

The universe does not revolve around us anymore than it did the T-Rex or the dodo hence we are free to kill ourselves individually or nuke ourselves into extinction (e.g. in the 1960s over the Cuba missile crisis) but look at how vast the universe is and how "unlikely" our existence was (the dinosaur extinction etc.).

This universe is this universe (past, present, future) down to the tiniest detail. My lifetime exists just as the Big Bang (or whatever we want to call it) exists and it affects the future. If that lifetime ends with me committing suicide then that is how it affects the future, I cannot remove meaning from things, that is just this silly idea we humans have, that if we misbehave or misstep we "destroy" meaning like dirty fingers smudging the letters in a letter.

Art is essentially an organism trying (or achieving) to spark creativity (innovation, "newness"), even if only in itself. In other words, bats flying today is arguably due to the art of survival.

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jank_ram t1_j67kin4 wrote

When did YOU learn this? Was it not from the day you were born until now, making observations in your lifespan? Are you saying that's real at all? Infact I think it's more accurate to say that you left no association between whatever is observable and the objective. You are saying everything is a lie so essentially that statement in of itself is a lie, no?

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EducatorBig6648 t1_j67x9ww wrote

>When did YOU learn this? Was it not from the day you were born until now, making observations in your lifespan?

Of course but I fail to see what you're implying.

>Are you saying that's real at all?

In what sense? That I exist and draw conclusions? Of course I exist, that's one of the half-dozen things I know I even can 100% know to be real.

>Infact I think it's more accurate to say that you left no association between whatever is observable and the objective.

I don't know what you mean by this. Are we talking in a "The Earth orbits the Sun and we live on the Earth." sense or a "How do I know I'm not an entity living in an illusion fed false data?" sense?

>You are saying everything is a lie so essentially that statement in of itself is a lie, no?

How am I saying everything is a lie? Because I say "value" and "should" are myths? Because the latter is just me not being an egomaniac trying to make the universe revolve around us.

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jank_ram t1_j69f7zy wrote

Let's think of the universe not in terms of the observable universe, rather the potential universe, no just what Is, bit what ever could be in all dimensions, since it is logically the same thing if you take your subjective experience out of it, in what way ever does it resemble where we live that universe? Infact in what way is it differentiated from absolute nothing, if there is no observer which "rules the earth" in announcing to himself what is meaningful pulling a concrete ground in utter chaos. If it doesn't center around you then what does it center around, nothing? That doesn't mean it's all encompassing that just means it has no center even if it wanted, infinite potential is basically the same as nothing, but our existence as experiencing beings makes it so the infinite potential universe is disproven individual tho as it may by if anything can call itself individual the maybe that's great enough for the chaos to bow down and revolve around what it never had.

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EducatorBig6648 t1_j6aaqil wrote

>Let's think of the universe not in terms of the observable universe, rather the potential universe, no just what Is, bit what ever could be in all dimensions, since it is logically the same thing if you take your subjective experience out of it, in what way ever does it resemble where we live that universe? Infact in what way is it differentiated from absolute nothing, if there is no observer which "rules the earth" in announcing to himself what is meaningful pulling a concrete ground in utter chaos.

There is no such thing as "chaos". "Chaos" would have zero patterns and thus no existence. It's kind like you saying there is a molecule that has zero atoms, I can have a concept of that in my head but it makes no sense.

Your "observer announcing to himself" is irrelevant. Every tiny detail of the universe (past, present, future, alive or dead) plays its role in making this universe this universe and not just a similar potential one, and that is meaningful. The distance between the Earth and the Sun is such a detail and it played a role in you and I having this conversation right now and your "announcing observer" has no say in that.

>If it doesn't center around you then what does it center around, nothing?

That's misunderstanding what I mean by it not revolving around us organisms, bordering on strawman argument. I simply mean that if we had nuked ourselves into extinction in the 1960s or if this planet had never sustained life then the universe would be just as valid as it is now. Just as this universe is valid without 8 billion green Martians living on Mars at this time.

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jank_ram t1_j6axjyj wrote

I argue that consciousness is the only validator possible, since it's probably v a validator by definition, think of it as, something doesn't exist until it's validated by a consciousness, and when it does, it only exist to that consciousness. In other words if (and if it's possible) a consciousness dies the universe which it validated dies. I think you are saying something exists to the extent of it's relation to other things since that's what a pattern is, but I argue, says who? Without validation there is no existence. Correct me if I am wrong in my understanding

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LogMeInCoach t1_j6bvjzx wrote

The sun existed for billions of years before we became conscious. If our entire civilization would be wiped out tomorrow, the sun would still continue to exist for billions of years without a conscience to validate it.

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EducatorBig6648 t1_j6c4wkg wrote

>The sun existed for billions of years before we became conscious. If our entire civilization would be wiped out tomorrow, the sun would still continue to exist for billions of years without a conscience to validate it.

In the sense of "We are not held in illusion", yes, absolutely.

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