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zaceno t1_j5me647 wrote

Reply to comment by SvetlanaButosky in /r/philosophy Open Discussion Thread | January 23, 2023 by BernardJOrtcutt

Your proposal hinges on the assumption that a “miserable life” is worse than no life at all. I’m not convinced that is true.

Also since we don’t remember anything from before we were born it’s possible we were all given a choice, but forget as we incarnate. Not arguing that is the case - just saying that would also be a way out of the dilemma.

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SvetlanaButosky t1_j5ndg5r wrote

>I’m not convinced that is true.

Would most people trade their lives with these miserable lives? I'm talking about the worst prolonged suffering possible and most ended in agony, most are children, they dont get any "happy ending" for their terrible fate, its terribleness from birth till death, this is statistically undeniable and unpreventable for some.

Would you trade your life with them? If its that valuable?

>it’s possible we were all given a choice,

Eh, what? No offense, but absurd claim requires extraordinary proof.

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zaceno t1_j5nhq3l wrote

Didn’t claim pre-life choice is real - just a hypothetical possibility.

About trading my life: that’s not what I said. I would not trade my life against a miserable one, of course.

What I said was: perhaps having a bad life is better than never living at all.

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AnUntimelyGuy t1_j5on6d9 wrote

>What I said was: perhaps having a bad life is better than never living at all.

I am not the person you are responding to, but I think value judgments like this are entirely subjective. In this sense, OP can judge that a life is not worth living within her perspective, and you can judge that a life is worth living within your own. The person whose life is miserable can also judge whether his/her life is worth living or not. All of you can be correct in this manner.

It is important to me that people are also able to weave this subjectivism into their discourse. To recognize other people's values and desires as valid expressions, and not shut them down as unreasonable and wrong.

As before, this approach requires recognizing subjectivism with regard to reasons and values. I am rather extreme as I would be considered amoral to some (which is my own preference), and a moral relativist to others. My objective is to remove any unnecessary middlemen/intermediaries (e.g. moral obligations and experiences of external values) to expressing our cares and concerns.

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zaceno t1_j5oucd5 wrote

I fully agree with the subjectivity of evaluating the worth of living. Which is why I used the word “perhaps”. In fact in everything I wrote I was explicitly not expressing any personal beliefs or values. I was just offering some hypotheticals that could possibly invalidate/weaken the original argument (“procreation is immoral”)

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