Talosian_cagecleaner t1_j38mkqg wrote
Reply to comment by Brandyforandy in Our ability to resist temptation depends on how fragmented one's mind is | On the inconsistencies in one’s mental setup by IAI_Admin
or openness paradoxically lessens fragmentation. Likely due to openness allowing for many more potential "cohesion moments" than would a closed system.
Travel can be a good time to gather your thoughts. Travel is sticky. People have written books about being on the road. Identity in movement, not so much state.
Brandyforandy t1_j38v7d3 wrote
I can imagine being too open would impede your ability to form coherent beliefs. Openness could also be called naive in the way you are explaining, it's important to use critical thinking so that you are not led astray.
Oh-hey21 t1_j395d6i wrote
This one is making my mind go in circles and I'm struggling to summarize my point, so bear with me please.
I understand the cautious note, but at the same time, don't the times astray feed directly into creating critical thinking?
Without a single time astray all you can go off of is other people. At some point you would assume other people may not see a situation the same as you. How do you form that "you" without being fragmented?
And sorry if I misread yours.
Brandyforandy t1_j39ffna wrote
It's not wrong to go astray, but to go astray and not reflect upon it would lead to repeated actions. There are many who are of the belief that practice makes perfect, I am of the belief that practice makes permanent. And so, if you repeatedly go astray you'll make a habit of it, instead of doing the right thing from the start. In the first place, these are all our perceptions, there is nothing which is right and wrong. So in an absolute nihilistic way of thinking we need to search within us to find what is right for you. In a human with proper upbringing this is often correlated with things which we view as positive values.
Oh-hey21 t1_j3ar4lb wrote
I think I struggle with this due to having a rough upbringing. At the same time, I attribute a lot of myself to the few external positives, as well as the collection of other close ones who were astray.
Both the good and bad have been solid reflection points for myself throughout my life. I was fortunate enough to soak up a lot at a young age, and being curious has helped me form better feelings besides the second-hand initial knowledge. Going astray throughout life up through now has helped confirm some things, but also helped me create new definitions to others.
Linking back to the video, and I believe what you're also saying - if I were to never give in to the temptations I knew were likely bad, I would have never formed a new opinion, or I may never know with certainty to myself that they are bad.
I agree we need to search within us to find what is right for ourselves. I think self-reflection is extremely important to one's growth.
Brandyforandy t1_j3ba6jq wrote
A thought exercise - I've had a thought that upbringing stops at 12, when the child enters puberty. At this point they begin rebelling and take in new experiences. While rebelling they are in fact not 'rebelling', but testing if the knowledge they've gained from their parents hold up in the real world. If it does, they keep it, if it doesn't, it's discarded. They keep up until they're an adult, where they've formed their own opinions.
I believe this is why we 'grow up to become like our parents', but not until we are actual adults, and not exactly alike.
Oh-hey21 t1_j3cu5hm wrote
I have trouble fully supporting this one.
I feel it's a blanket statement, which rarely covers all cases. I would not consider myself to be one that fits, but I do think many may fit the mold.
For a little more context, I grew up with no restrictions. A dysfunctional family riddled with addiction and abandonment, topped off with a few forms of abuse.
I remember my childhood fairly vividly, many memories from 3-4 years old and on. I wouldn't consider all of the memories accurate, but there are times and people that really stand out, both good and bad.
In retrospect, these key moments from an early age up through my late teens helped form my sense of me. It wasn't a single rebellion period, simply because there was nothing to rebel against. I was experimenting with the world before I could even process the outcome of my actions.
A lot of the people who were bad influences and heavily involved in my younger years (pre 12) are not fairing so well in life. Neither is my younger sibling who I tried my best to watch after as long as I possibly could, but that's currently on the up I hope.
This subject is difficult to me, because I tend to put periods and experiences throughout life under a microscope. I analyze a lot of what I went through, how it made me feel, and how things could be different. I also know that not everything needs to change or could be changed, but embracing and remembering has done well for me.
That process hasn't stopped. It's become more of how I approach everything. My opinions of the past are not static, they change with every new experience I find relatable. Sometimes they are reinforced, other times I'm given a new way to think about the situation.
The thing is, there are so few constants in life. Life is also so unique, yet similar. We seem to want to find patterns that hold true for all, but lack the formulas for really proving it.
I think constantly having an open mind and making sense of it is essential to growth. I do not know that you're suggesting this, but I do not think there should be a static point. These opinions can be firm, but not firm to the extent they cannot be changed. I am currently an adult, and while I identify with a lot of my past, it is not me. I have learned, I have become better, I have also become worse. The thing is, I am not the current me. I am the future me, with past me as a reference point.
Now I guess tying in to what I take from your comment - I'd argue puberty isn't THE defining point. Maybe it is for some, maybe it's the spark. I personally am just now learning who my parents are, so I do not have much of an identity with either. That said, the very young experiences with extended family were massive.
I recently connected with an aunt that used to watch me sporadically when I was 4-6. Since then I've seen her twice, the most recent being 15 years ago. It was surreal finally getting to know her better - my sense of her was extremely limited. I could tell you everything about her house, her children, what I did there, but I couldn't tell you much of what I remember about her. I know I didn't have negative feelings, but I couldn't put a finger on the positive.
Seeing her after so much time had passed was surreal. She understood a lot of what I had to say, and I saw similarities in things like her reactions and temperament. We identified with one another.
I attribute myself to the experiences like the short few years of being babysit by her. I'm not implying she is the sole reason, I have countless others that stand out in my youth. My time alone was equally beneficial with simply thinking - I grew up with a lot of thinking, it was the only way to justify my existence at times.
Sorry if I went off a bit too much. More than willing to keep this train going, if the opportunity presents itself. This year has been very profound for me, but I'm struggling to find more outlets to be heard and also hear. I appreciate the extra thought!
Brandyforandy t1_j3g9g81 wrote
Isn't that because you were raised to find that you always need to find your own path, and nothing is constant? So your upbringing, up to 12, consisted of a lifestyle that required constant learning and growth. The reason I am asking is because my upbringing were similar, and I also have a similar mindset to you.
Oh-hey21 t1_j3giiq2 wrote
Yes and no.
Yes to always having to find my own path. I lacked authority and was able to identify at a young age what others experienced at home from their parents. I then took what I viewed second-hand and applied it to myself.
I'm having a hard time with the age part.
I understand and agree that many children will have an idea of the world with help from their parents. I get there will be an age at which a child will get curious enough to make sense of what they think they know and either strengthen it or dismiss it. I just do not identify a period where that happened in myself. I also think there are many layers to it, and there may not be a single period of breaking free from the initial self. To add a little more, society also controls some movements in terms of freedom and change in environments.
If anything, my upbringing has taught me lessons that were impossible to better understand until much older. I associate good upbringing from tiny splashes from extended family, friends and friends' families. Bad with every day life.
I'm sorry if I'm not getting it, but I would like a better understanding.
Brandyforandy t1_j3m208c wrote
I, as well, am similar to you that I always found my own path from a young age, so as a teenager there was no rebellious phase for me because whatever I had learned was already tested and true. I believe you are in a similar position.
Oh-hey21 t1_j3mehrs wrote
I believe you are correct.
This makes it quite difficult to make sense of, however.
How did we find our paths?
I put a lot of credit towards the positives I knew of, and how I also knew my norm was bad, but at the same time my sibling is just four years younger and our lives could not be more different post-childhood.
It also makes me wonder how much of human nature can be controlled. I'm not implying people should be controlled, but I wish it were possible to successfully help those on the wrong path at an early age.
I strongly favor living and learning. You cannot educate people on certain things without them experiencing it first-hand.
I believe this ties in with your idea of the rebellious stage - children who are guided through life, even if what is deemed "correct", will/may begin to question these thoughts. Questioning leads to testing which leads to the separation of what they knew second hand which then turns into their own experiences.
In a way, it may make sense to promote rebellion. A wrong path doesn't have to be wrong; it can be educational.
Thanks for the back and forth.
Brandyforandy t1_j3n814s wrote
Thank yourself, I am having a great time discussing this topic with you. Your questions really make me think in directions which I haven't considered before. My initial thought was very immature, some inspiration I had in the moment. As we flesh it out together it seems to have greater depth than I could have anticipated.
I believe it wasn't so much that we found our paths, as we subconsciously looked at the reactions of the people around us for answers and consequences. Instead of being told what to do, we had to think and gather information from a variety of sources.
Oh-hey21 t1_j3ncg0b wrote
The more and more I dive into the subconscious self the more confused I get.
We are beings consisting of trillions of microorganisms that work hard to maintain the physical us. There is far greater unknowns going on inside with endless communication and cooperation that "we" have next to no control over. I understand I'm limited in my knowledge through science, but I enjoy trying to learn all I can on the biological side. I find myself going down a lot of funky paths thinking about life in general.
I am probably diving a little too deep with the above, but I can't help but wonder and think if there is more going on than we could ever comprehend with far greater implications on the self.
Anyway, I've had a really pleasurable time digging into why I do a lot of things and I enjoy the discoveries. It's fun to slow down common actions and think about them - why I do it, is there a better way, did I knowingly choose the best way or was it by chance, etc.
If you have anything else you want to dive into please feel free to keep it going.
Talosian_cagecleaner t1_j39a8zs wrote
>it's important to use critical thinking so that you are not led astray.
That is a closing move, though. Or can be. We need to better explore what openness does before we set up a watch over it.
A frictionless, permeable barrier would be madness. But movement with some level of surface coherence would, due to the openness introduced by the movement, naturally increase coherence or mitigate fragmentation. Again, paradoxically.
Imagine a surface with a number X of connections and/or connectors. These connections are with the surface itself (endogenic, reflection, or preoccupation I suppose too) and adventitious (exogenic, external). By movement [in the external] the potential connections multiply in proportion to how one (the surface) moves.
But, one can move the surface too fast to enable this virtuous tempo.
Additionally, there are many ways to move the surface. Many people find reading to be a mode by which connections are made bountiful. Others do not. Some find travel nourishing. But again, at a virtuous tempo.
EDIT: what the tempo is, is not universal, certainly. When and how to rest the surface -- to sleep -- varies in its meaning and operation in human societies, for example. I would expect a lot of variation, even at the individual level. Thank goodness for language. It gives us some semblance of a common timeline of "what's happening."
Brandyforandy t1_j39ge5b wrote
I find it curious that you see it this way. There was a study done a few years ago on what makes a creative individual.. creative. They found that it was not intelligence, nor brain size that mattered, but the ability to make absolutely random connections in the brain, seemingly unnecessary connections. In that way, creative people would be able to come up with the most absurd ideas, but not necessarily have the ability to judge the viability of them. Maybe be need both, some people who are 'open' and others who are 'closed'.
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