I disagree with the kind of pessimism that has radical activist sorts assuming that there can be no reasoned discussion/wholesome argument between sides, and so never try to communicate their ideas.

I counter, it's time for optimism to take the scene.

We've had toxic optimism taking us for a ride our entire species existence. We've known global warming due to human activity was a thing since the early 1900s, and we still have 'optimists' trying to run around and say everything is fine! We're not overpopulated and technology will save us! As we're ass deep in the anthropocene extinction. I don't know of a current metric that merits optimism.

Then surely you can tell me some examples of how pessimism has done well by society or the world?

If Thunberg is to be taken as the “arch-pessimist” of this article, then that is not exactly a ringing endorsement of the approach. Thunberg is a high profile activist figure, but her pessimism leaves her vulnerable to attack by her opponents who may offer a brighter, or at least less alarmist version of the future. It also weakens her impact on the sympathetic, those most directly pressured. They call her and have her castigate them for ruining the world as a secular penance.

Climate change calls for a specific action to address it. Objectively speaking, there is a lot that can still be done. The only ethically correct message when it comes to climate change is a specific, effective one.

Pessimism will never be as motivating as telling people about the bright future ahead if they invest in climate mitigation now.

Over optimism can become carelessness. But even a small amount of pessimism leads to fatalism.

Doesn't matter what headspace, pessimism is necessary for seeing things as they are. The unbridled optimism peddled by capitalists to continue plundering resources has already doomed the world. Optimists are useful tools against science and progress more than benefits to society.

Doesn't answer my initial question. Give me an example that supports your claim that it's necessary, by showing that it's effective.

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Pessimism might not be a great cheerleader but every margin of error, every hedge, every tolerance, every conservation effort has roots in pessimism. It’s not sexy but it works, and it’s just what we need to counter the morons who believe in the myths of infinite growth and ever greater fools.

Pessimism is like salt. Pepper is like optimism.

It's pretty clear when you've used too much salt.

It's a lot harder to use too much pepper. There's a healthy balance.

Lol. I wasnt there for any major historical decisions where the pessimist in the room talked sense into the rest. I can point to numerous examples where optimism has failed us greatly though, we have great records on that. You demanding examples is just a demonstration that you have no argument really for your optimism, and instead would like to strawman something away from your poor philosophical stance. Especially your errant declaration that "it's time for more unbridled optimism!". Super shortsighted and childish.

Aren't you a textbook case of "unbridled/toxic optimism" when it comes to pessimism?

Blindly supporting it since you can't name a single historical instance when it did us any good?

I don't even disagree that blind faith/"toxic optimism" is an issue. I just don't think devolving into full-on pessimism has served anyone very well, especially judging by my experiences in social media over time.

As has been discussed elsewhere, pessimism has had good effects, but not in and of itself.

Optimism should be honed by skepticism/criticism. So we can identify and feel optimistic in a realistic path forward.

Nice, the strawman I predicted you would pull from your back pocket!

How about just admitting that optimism isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread and an acknowledgement that it's not the best way to go about dealing in the world? That's all you have to do, but nah, you look at where all the ambitious optimism has us and decide we need more! Lol....

Nonsense. Humans have been convinced they are living in the end times at every point in history. Doom and gloom has always been the popular stance.

If people don't believe progress is possible, they won't work towards it.

Blind faith/"toxic optimism" is bad, but so is full-on pessimism.

Realistic optimism seems more like what we should push for, since we know that there's a level of optimism that does well by us before it gets to that point.

Since you think I'm strawmanning, then it's clear you believe I'm arguing in bad faith. I guess I should leave it at this then, unless you wanna try and explain how the heck I was strawmanning... I mean, would you buy a product on amazon with no or terrible reviews?

I think it’s important to distinguish pessimism from being critical or skeptical.

Pessimistic logic helps free people from the yoke of religion.

Example: Thoughts and prayers and magical thinking

Yes. Blind faith can be dumb, but optimism and a more positive headspace does wonders.

You're right. I should've said honed by criticism/skepticism. Edited.

Skeptical/critical logic does. Pessimistic logic is just depression.

I do not consult Amazon reviews at all, theyre not verifiable. Realistic optimism isn't a thing. It's just optimism. It's often used like faith, as belief that the best outcome will prevail without evidence. Demonstrate a reason for optimism and we can talk, but declaring now the time for optimism after optimism is what got us to this point is silly. Like I said in the beginning, general optimism is weaponizing you against your own self interest.

That is some solid "Monkey Logic".

> we still have 'optimists' trying to run around and say everything is fine!

I hesitate to assume it's optimists saying that, but rather self-interested financial elites that are distinctly invested in pushing pessimism to avoid necessary changes.

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It's optimists hijacked by their capitalist masters, yes. It's still the "wanting to believe without or against evidence" part that leaves optimists open for being taken advantage of. Like saying religion isn't bad, just extremists. The extremists wouldn't exist without the religion. Maybe they'd find something else to take to it's fullest extent, but it wouldn't be violent, morally questionable fairy tales.

If a stupid, pink, hairless monkey can figure it out, you can too!

I think some people are talking in the comments about the caricature of pessimism, instead of the "hopeful pessimism" that the article tries to advance.

I have to agree with most of what you wrote, but i respectfully disagree with your point that

> But even a small amount of pessimism leads to fatalism.

Although it being an understandable point of view on the matter, Fatalism doesn't necessarily go hand-in-hand with pessimism. My great grandmother is from the Silent Generation, with a very strong fatalism oriented view, and she is far from pessimistic in her views of the world. In fact, she is the total opposite. Same goes for every family member i know are pessimistic and show the opposite of fatalism in their beliefs about the world, they do not hold the belief that a higher force drives their destiny.

Until someone shows a metric that is grounds for optimism, we've drained that well. No one has done shit with the hopeful messages of working for a brighter tomorrow! that have been pushed for decades. It's just hijacked to sell you more shit. We're not gonna even slow global warming and you think optimism still has merit or that people will change if you talk nicer to them? There are 8 billion people now, and to have to babystep any percentage of that to motivate them positively is an impossible task. We saw exactly how the world is going to react to collective action with COVID. There's not a single drop of hope for anything changing even if it's going to only mildly inconvenience the average person. Always look on the bright side, but it's hard to have a bright side with an ever dimming bulb.

>Demonstrate a reason for optimism and we can talk

Sure! When I've failed at something and then done some preparation to raise my chances at success, I feel optimistic that it'll work when I try again!

And it's a realistic optimism, tempered by the lessons of my failure! So it is a thing.

​

>I do not consult Amazon reviews at all, theyre not verifiable.

So you just don't consult any reviews on the internet? That's pretty pessimistic.

Is there really a difference between hopeful pessimism and what I'd call realistic optimism?

If not, then I think we've been going over it already.

This attitude is why pessimism leads nowhere but the grave. Every day, tens of millions of people are working to apply existing solutions to mitigate climate change or to develop new ones. You’re even hyperfocusing on certain elements of society to paint covid as a loss, and not as the tremendous achievement of medical science it was to develop safe, effective, and mass produceable vaccines with ground breaking technology.

To say that there is no hope is a self-fulfilling prophecy and does not match the evidence we have.

I hope we're not expecting thousands of up votes for this post, but somehow I suspect you didn't.😉

>Sure! When I've failed at something and then done some preparation to raise my chances at success, I feel optimistic that it'll work when I try again!

We haven't even begun to try to change the system, and we have been told for a century that the world is going to choke to death if we keep doing what we're doing. The optimism of the world is just kicking the can down the road.

>So you just don't consult any reviews on the internet? That's pretty pessimistic.

Another demonstration of your bad faith argumentation. I said Amazon, cause reviews are bought and merchandise is fraudulent often. I don't buy anything of consequence from Amazon.

This is the best optimism has to offer? Deceit for the sake of feeling good for another short while until reality calls you back to the fact the world is dying?

Your comment is the first of any on this discussion that even scratches the surface of the ‘best’ attitude that is needed to move forward on the crises of climate change, political neo-fascism, the cult like thinking that leads to religious bigotry and the influence it has on morality, etc. I think we’re about at the stage of ‘what is needed is a 2x4 to the back of the head’ of our current capitalist/consumer society. The hedonistic me-me-me path we have followed for to long has brought us to a time in which we must decide if, as a species, we intend to go on. We have the resources and knowledge to turn things around, but we also can use these tools to continue on the path of crashing and burning as we have for far to long the past century or so.

You want bad faith argumentation, you didn't even really answer me.

Just as I said, full-on pessimism just leads to an excess of political activist/dismissive dunderhead types.

If you can't even tell the difference between real and fake reviews, you've got a lot of learning to do before you've earned the right to be pessimistic.

Goodbye.

Tens of millions in the face of billions and a century of pollution. Are you aware of us being the cause of the 6th mass extinction on earth currently?

You asked a question that doesn't really have an answer. Like a believer saying well you don't know what caused the big bang so despite the evidence I believe the (insert specific God claim here) did it!

And lol that you think wasting time deciphering Amazon reviews makes you special.

We're gonna keep burning, thx.

• the world

This is so sad. No, I'm just experienced.

Get your head out of your ass and grow up, do some things with your life before you latch on to some weird ideology. You're just being a weird fanatic at this point.

Not meant to be an insult, just concerned advice.

Of course. But there’s no circumstance that could make striving to make tomorrow better than today not worthwhile. Regardless of what’s ahead, throwing up our hands benefits no one.

Sorry this comes off as someone who’s never stepped foot in a kitchen. You can most certainly over season with pepper. Especially if the person can’t handle spice, example: the fine people of Great Britain.

I didn't say throw up your hands, I just said the world isn't going to get it's shit together to avoid the disastrous future that optimists tried to steer us from gently for the last 75 years. Everyone would need to cut most of their fossil fuel usage and plastics about 40 years ago. Since then it's been an exceleration with capitalists on the side dumping money in to 'optimism' for the masses so they can keep profiting. It's just like anytime someone tries to remind everyone we don't have free energy and carbon capture isn't going to save us in time, they get shouted down for being a buzzkill. Like the the global warming episode of always sunny- I don't want just one shot, I want seven! I don't wanna stop! I don't wanna slow down! The world is programmed by consumption and there are too many people. Look up the difference between a million seconds and a billion.

I said a healthy balance, I didn't say it was guaranteed to sit well with the lightweights.

Lol. It's easier to con a man than to convince him he's been conned. Sounds like you've latched on to the weird ideology as you want to trust Amazon. It takes being a weird fanatic to bring change, keep being an experienced consumer tho. That's dope.

The article does a bad job of define terms before using ones that no average reader would use. The article isn’t unhelpful but it’s a bad jumping off point.

Optimists have ground to stand on, considering this is most peaceful, progressive time in human history.

Bro of all the times to post this, maybe not while we are curing a new type cancer almost weekly.

Martin Luther, I’d argue. The article argues that pessimism is often caricatured, but in reality it represents the ability to face the negative things in life.

Luther held a very bleak view of the Catholic Church. He challenged common opinions and brought the Church’s intentions and behaviors to light.

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Carbon capture and free energy won’t save us, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be invested in. It’s a fine line in that they’re both essential and deserve heavy investment, but shouldn’t be used as an excuse to neglect conservation efforts.

Optimism doesn’t mean being in denial about the challenges we face.

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Where are the conservation efforts? There are so little it may as well be 0. As far as what optimism means, it kind of is denial:

op·ti·mism /ˈäptəˌmiz(ə)m/ noun 1. hopefulness and confidence about the future or the successful outcome of something.

PHILOSOPHY the doctrine, especially as set forth by Leibniz, that this world is the best of all possible worlds.

If we stopped all unnecessary consumption today and all efforts went to remediation of the damage already done, it still won't be enough to fix the world. We have finite resources and there isn't a global will to do anything differently. We've blown past every warning light and marker with thoughts and prayers.

That doesn't sound like pessimism, rather than the fruits of skepticism/criticism.

Pessimism and optimism are both just a more specific way to describe delusion or fallible predictions. Neither are a virtue, and once one becomes aware they are exhibiting either the only rational action is to course correct towards a more accurate model of reality.

But is it usually unhealthy to use too much pepper as opposed to salt?

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How fast are those going to make it to production? How cost prohibitive is it going to be? Is it going to cure the cancers caused by the ever increasing plastic/heavy metal/pfos content in our food chain? Like, yay, I hope there continues to be advances medically, as it's our only hope to ride out the hellscape, but our national lifespan continues to plummet downwards.

Agree utterly and hope you fathom the weight of your words. Positivity is the trap of the maniacal.

With some of the greatest wealth disparity the world has ever seen, with more people enslaved than ever and we're a minute and a half from doomsday, sounds like you make a compelling argument there.

>There mat be so little it may well be 0.

I’m sorry, but that’s a fundamentally unserious view.

It's pretty simple. There have always been optimists, and cynicism has always been popular.

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Your comment is a good example of lack of optimism leading to complete blinding fatalism.

>No one has done shit

You casually dismiss every good thing as being non-existent. I would need only a single example to prove you wrong - like the trend of investment in renewable energy.

>to motivate them positively is an impossible task

Pure fatalism. When you claim people are so indecent as to not tolerate minor inconvenience, I suppose I wonder how you are unable to perceive whole societies where they wear masks routinely.

>There's not a single drop of hope for anything changing even if it's going to only mildly inconvenience the average person.

Pure fatalism to its very core.

Technologies are advancing rapidly. AI will automate many jobs. The world cannot not change. You perspective makes you blind to the bulk of reality.

It's easy and low effort to just list problems. Anyone can do that. It's different to talk about things in the context of where they have been and where they are going. Maybe if you pick a specific issue and dig down you will see what I mean.

How much of the rainforest is destroyed per day? Wetlands? How many wells of oil still spewing how much in to the environment? How many forever chemicals spills have been remedied? The ramifications of our actions have only begun, and the actions haven't stopped. None the less the underdeveloped areas that don't even have a clue or care to tally pollution accurately.

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Did you read the article?

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Lol, you assume this change is going to be so much betterment that it fixes the permanent damage we've done? Ok... And you call me irrational.

Even easier to lie to yourself and assume things are going to just work out. I just asked you to clarify your specific issue you brought up, but check my comment history in the thread for more specifics and we can go from there if you wanna abandon your cancer cure argument.

Or maybe, hopeful pessimism? Really seems like you didn't read the article.

You literally just call anything positive someone points out about pessimism skepticism, your not arguing in good faith my friend.

He does and he realizes how dumb that sounds so he rephrased it cryptically.

Why is it pessimism and not skepticism to you then?

Pretty sure they do communicate their ideas. The optimists simply don't listen because it threatens their optimism.

If you've read it, then you could surely differentiate the article's hopeful pessimism from my "realistic optimism".

Well? What's the difference?

No, that would be a weird over-generalization. I'm just contesting the idea that history was defined by broad optimism, or that optimism has been a constantly, hugely popular position for people right up until the present moment. That's false.

And I'm also saying there's value in optimism.

>Your comment above made no mention of health

It most certainly did.

>There's a healthy balance.

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I'm optimistic enough to try and communicate with a lot of pessimistic/political fellows, yet they're often too pessimistic to see communicating back as anything but a waste of time.

They assume failure without even really trying. We've had too much pessimism lately imo.

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So you didn't read the article. Got it.

When did I say that?

Why would I have a discussion with someone I literally just told I don't believe is having a good faith discussion.

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Leave it to a pessimist to make that assumption on so little.

Thank you for portraying my argument against encouraging pessimism for the rest of us.

It's a safe assumption to make when we can't even progress to the "trying" part because that might mess with some rich guy's bank account. Politicians are owned by the same rich guys. For decades, we've been trying to convince optimists that this bribery is an incomprehensibly huge issue that infects every other issue like a cancer, and that nothing truly positive can happen under those conditions. But the optimists just went ahead and assumed that the bribed politicians (at least the ones in their party) would fight for them anyway, despite the bribes.

No, I dont assume. But, unlike you, I am not blind to possibilities, and the positive things that have happened and are happening.

>the permanent damage

You assume. Here is one example, but there are many.

>And you call me irrational

No, I didn't. I explained that your fatalism makes you unable to see the countless counter examples that definitively prove your statements false. In order to continue to not see reality, you are now required to invent a way to represent me as someone to ignore entirely - as is the nature of continued fatalism.

When did I say I was a pessimist. Leave it to an optimist to just make shit up whole cloth and claim they are correct.

You are reading my comment as saying that 100% of everyone thought it was the end times and also that 100% of all progress is made by optimists. That's not what I think and any person making any kind of attempt at a generous reading would never assume that's what I think.

I'm saying that the person claiming that all of human history was marked by prevalent, toxic optimism is incorrect. That's not the case. Historically, cynicism has always been extremely popular. I'm also claiming that optimists are generally more effective and bringing about progress.

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I feel as pessimism is a view for investigation and optimism is a view for hope. Both things are just a perception on a topic that are necessary to find all knowledge we can understand to bring us closer to the truth. The belief I have on this is perceptions cannot by itself be truthful and are just a tool instead of an identity.

That doesn't sound like a mentally healthy perspective to me. One would be much more prone to fall into a state of depression with that viewpoint.

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Not on the small scale. I would've listened.

But apparently I just wasn't worth the effort. Better to talk down to me and act like they've won the argument without even trying.

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Small scale efforts are like trying to bail out a sinking ocean liner with a thimble. Worse, they make people complacent and satisfied that they've solved the problem when 99.9999% of the problem remains.

Behold, a prime specimen: A pessimist gives up before even trying to understand what confuses him.

Small scale efforts are showing the kind of compassion and good will you claim to have for world/societal issues to the common man around you.

It's integrity.

Clarify != Gish gallop the entire supply chain. It’s a dishonest approach to problem solving.

If we ultimately have little to no control of the endogenous and exogenous factors of our lives then to what extent is it helpful being pessimistic. Is not optimism the only sane choice we have? I like to believe so 🍀

So it's basically a symbolic gesture, then. We've already been doing those for the last 50 years or so. They're not working. We recycled all our plastic bottles to help the environment, then we found out that we were being lied to the whole time, and 98% of them were ending up in landfills! You'd think that would disturb even the most fervent optimist, but nope. They just kept right on trucking, same strategies, same viewpoints, steady on into the void.

Agreed. Seems like there’s been nothing but pessimism for a while now. The 24hr news cycle is fueled by pessimism.

I'm not talking about that right now, I'm talking about how they treat their fellow man when they ask what's going on.

The pessimism that leads them to brush off their curiosity and escalate conflict.

Mhm.

Hey why not!

Schopenhauer said the most terrible noise is that of the whip, the horse whip. It speaks of the utter carelessness of human beings, and of how bleak we never cease to be.

I could make the counterargument, human beings deeply need symbiotic contact of some sort with other species, but horse labor and horse transport was replaced by machines. Net result: potentially quite a serious loss all around, if my premise is correct.

Pessimism relies on you agreeing to limiting your outlook just so. But why would one do that? Is there any self-evidence for pessimism? I think it's histrionic. A previous post was about absurdist writers. Kinda same deal. History moves forward, and the passions some thoughts require of us, sometimes just don't work the same way. Thrill is gone, thrill is gone.

Anything that wants to keep a flame alive makes me also suspect, something needs burned down. Why pessimism? Don't tell me about stuff like horse whips. That's rhetoric, not theory.

The pessimism is what comes after decades of optimism didn't work. And from decades of being on the receiving end of bad faith arguments engineered by oil industry propagandists, tested on focus groups for maximum impact, and disseminated among purportedly well-meaning optimists. Yeah, some people are gonna get snippy with you after dealing with that. And anyway, there comes a point when optimism is indistinguishable from delusion. The eternally optimistic make it a point of pride not to be convinced of anything that threatens their optimism, and thus their worldview. Convincing people like that feels about as achievable as trying to talk a devout religious person out of their religion.

The reason I have rejected optimism is the same reason that I have rejected Christianity. Both seem to say that righteous, wrathful rage should never be the appropriate response. And that whenever something good does happen, then that is the natural way of the world, or God's plan, instead of a violent departure from the normal state of many of our lives. Neither of these paired attitudes offer a realistic or useful view of reality as it is. They are only marginally useful as a view of how reality ought to be.

Well-said!

> fatalism makes you unable to see the countless counter examples that definitively prove your statements false

Some of my loved ones have given in to such thinking as well. The most frustrating thing about it is that they rant about a lot of issues but don’t do anything about them: no advocacy, no protesting, no changing their own actions—nothing! When confronted with examples contrary to their woes, they fall back upon cynicism of the solutions or outright dismissal of the contrary evidence.

I’m not going to assume that all fatalists are similar, but from what I’ve seen in my friends/family and others online, I haven’t seen any of them work towards ending the problems they point out, mainly just lashing out at those who don’t think similarly. It seems like an extremely tiring way of existing.

> Pessimism will never be as motivating as telling people about the bright future ahead if they <xyz>

But this is a false dichotomy. There is no reason to tell people that they must do anything unless there is something to dread.

Example:

Assume that leading AI experts recommend halting advancement of super-human AI due to the danger of hostile AI.

"If you pass this law to prevent the further advancement of super-human AI, then the singularity will not reshape the world."

This does not mention any danger, and thus implies that if they do not prevent the advancement of super-human AI, there will likewise also be good consequences.

Relax nothing is under control. - Guy McPherson.

> This attitude is why pessimism leads nowhere but the grave.

I have some bad news about where optimism leads, too.

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Blind faith/optimism as you describe is bad, but full-on pessimism is if anything, blowing up in their faces at the moment.

It isn't proving to be anymore of a viable solution as "eternal optimism" is.

Isn't that skepticism, not pessimism?

My thoughts exactly. I think realistic optimism would be a better term for what they describe.

A little mania does a society wonders.

And pessimism?

Pessimism acknowledges, as the piece said, that sometimes it is OK not to be OK. And that we don't gave to pretend that we are or will be in order for our worldview to make sense

You get to enjoy a more circuitous and fruitful route with optimism.

Hmm. But the piece wasn't encouraging regular old pessimism, but "hopeful pessimism", no?

What are the countless counter examples to the current extinction event we are the direct cause of? You know we are linked to that chain and biodiversity loss on top of irreversibly polluting the world with plastics and forever chemicals? What is the example I'm missing that counters those factual things??

I would argue that any pessimism that doesn't fall into nihilism must be inherently hopeful

Lol that you think it's a gishgallop when those are the direct challenges to your sunshine and rainbows cancer cure happy time.

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That certainly doesn't fit my caricature of it. I guess we really will have to consider the difference between pessimism and skepticism/criticism more closely!

Maybe fuck all of that

Gish gallop is a criticism of your conversation technique, not your pessimism point.

I know that's what you think it looks like, but no, all of those things are happening right now, simultaneously, while people sit here whining about being more optimistic. Our optimism fuels the fire without even thinking about it, but anyone saying stop or slow down, look at the results, gets labeled a pessimist. The idea that you change people's minds by giving them hope for a better future doesn't work. It would have already if that were the case. It's not. Optimism is profitable and easy to feed the masses.

Could you elaborate for me.

In addition, its very clear that the economy will continue going to shit, causing further social distress and the war in Ukraine will only continue to escalate, potentially threatening the world with a global conflict using weapons of mass destruction. People have practically zero advocacy in these issues.

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Agreed.

My reference to counter examples is to your claims that:

1. 'no one is doing anything' to which I only need to offer a single counter example to prove false, which I have already done in referencing the growth in solar planel investment and renweable energy dependence. But I can provide many examples - such as drone based forrest planting, where thousands of seedlings can be planted efficiently. Or the organisation Ocean Cleanup that is developing and using plastic trapping technology.

2. your claim that people will not tolerate minor inconvenience- which I have already proved false by pointing out that there are whole cultures wearing face masks. But for which there are many examples- such as the proliferation of constructing wheelchair accessible ramps to buildings, the organisations that survive off donations, and the organisations that survive off people volunteering their time and energy - being examples of inclusivity, generosity and patience.

>You know we are linked to that chain and biodiversity loss

Yes, I know.

>irreversibly polluting the world

Your strong claim here is suspect, given that I have proved false many of your other claims and that you clearly exhibit fatalism. The burden of proof is upon you to show how you know it is literally impossible to succeed - not for me to show what the solutions are.

And that criticism is a result of viewing the world for what it is - bleak. Those that represented God - even the Pope himself - were taking advantage of the common man. The Church, in its stark irony, made it harder for people to go to Heaven. That’s a pessimistic, yet grounded, perspective. It’s not sugar coated.

The author of the article does not divorce optimism and pessimism. Nor do they marry pessimism with fatalism - quite the opposite. They describe hopeful pessimism, which faces the negativity of the world head on while acknowledging things might get worse. I think Martins Luthers actions fit that description.

What is unserious is believing the fairytale that says any of our meager efforts toward conservation are making even the slightest dent in the problem as the rate of the destruction that got us here in the first place is not only not slowing down but is actually increasing.

Any efforts toward saving the environment are essentially a capitalistic dog and pony show at this point and has even reached the mainstream news outlets.

I guess there is a danger in optimism. You might lose your edge, relax too much if you dont have a fire under you

Personally, I think that contradicts with my definition of pessimism. Is pessimism not negativity to the point of not caring to try? To the point that it holds you back from facing that negativity?

I think "realistic optimism" is a better term for what you describe.

I think pessimism is negativity to the point of holding someone back from trying.

That would include investigation, which I think is far more commonly a result of skepticism.

>sees aeon article

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd it goes right to the pay no mind list. I refuse to entertain VICE for philistines with the personality of a drying waiting room

Full on Pessimism is an asethetic for folks in the first world

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You're using some overly strong hyperbole here, and it undermines your point.

I see your point, I agree investigation would fall more in line with skepticism.

I do think however that pessimism is not inherently negative to the point of not trying or acting.

I believe from what you have said that pessimism is a projection of a negative out come for some thing or event into its future state. This separates the choices from the view and from your perception onto the future. you then can decide weather or not to act.

What word would you use for pessimism instead of investigation?

Even a monumentally difficult problem can be solved.

You can describe the badness still. Thats ok. It’s hope that needs to drive action.

Being cynical is good and not the same as pessimistic.

Where, pray tell, is the hyperbole? Are you sure you're not just the one with their head in the sand??

1. What is being done faster than the rate of destruction? You have to stop the destruction first and we know this isn't happening. We can't even talk people into having less kids.

2. Lol that some cultures can do things and others refuse. I think the reason is bare as to why global cooperation isn't going to happen just in your own point alone.

>Your strong claim here is suspect, given that I have proved false many of your other claims

Go do some basic Google research on forever chemicals and get back to me. I really think you just suffer from not knowing enough about how bad of a spot we are in.

You know, it gets really annoying when people hide in optimism. Optimism ends up being only denial

No, that's just living in denial. The world is quite literally dying in front of us. We've lost 70% of all wildlife since 1970. There's where your fruitful optimism has gotten us.

Optimism for a better future. Be VERY careful into NOT mixing optimism with complacency tho.

This is the exact type of pessimistic fatalism that is antithetical to actually accomplishing anything.

It is a fact that wildlife populations have declined. This is a problem to reckoned with, I’d argue more successfully with an optimistic attitude than a pessimistic one.

Evidence shows that people are more greedy than fearful. To convince people to combat climate change, it is more useful to appeal to what they have to gain than what they have to lose.

Well for starters, calling yourself a pessimist makes one feel more edgy and cool.

Oh, don't worry, ive got it covered, the stuff that comes up in my most personal moments couldn't be any more bleak and hopeless 🤣👍

Humans: "OH BUT MAYBE IT COULD BE BETTER LIKE BLAHBLAHBLAH, BLAH BLA XYZ BLAH I REALLY DO THINK IT BLA BLAH BLAH"

Reality:

So, being more greedy then fearful, the billionaire class isn't going to change the system. There isn't any immediate gratification to be had in preservation. Everyone just wants to eat that tuna, bycatch be damned.

There doesn’t need to be immediate gratification. There are many ways for climate mitigation solutions to satisfy greed. You get much further selling people a solar-punk future than you do by trying to scare them. Doomsday predictions only convince people its futile to make an effort.