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monkeylogic42 t1_j2to0fr wrote

Reply to comment by gahblahblah in Look on the dark side | We must keep the flame of pessimism burning: it is a virtue for our deeply troubled times, when crude optimism is a vice by ADefiniteDescription

Lol, you assume this change is going to be so much betterment that it fixes the permanent damage we've done? Ok... And you call me irrational.

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gahblahblah t1_j2ttozl wrote

No, I dont assume. But, unlike you, I am not blind to possibilities, and the positive things that have happened and are happening.

>the permanent damage

You assume. Here is one example, but there are many.

>And you call me irrational

No, I didn't. I explained that your fatalism makes you unable to see the countless counter examples that definitively prove your statements false. In order to continue to not see reality, you are now required to invent a way to represent me as someone to ignore entirely - as is the nature of continued fatalism.

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paanvaannd t1_j2u8yj5 wrote

Well-said!

> fatalism makes you unable to see the countless counter examples that definitively prove your statements false

Some of my loved ones have given in to such thinking as well. The most frustrating thing about it is that they rant about a lot of issues but don’t do anything about them: no advocacy, no protesting, no changing their own actions—nothing! When confronted with examples contrary to their woes, they fall back upon cynicism of the solutions or outright dismissal of the contrary evidence.

I’m not going to assume that all fatalists are similar, but from what I’ve seen in my friends/family and others online, I haven’t seen any of them work towards ending the problems they point out, mainly just lashing out at those who don’t think similarly. It seems like an extremely tiring way of existing.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2ujl2n wrote

What are the countless counter examples to the current extinction event we are the direct cause of? You know we are linked to that chain and biodiversity loss on top of irreversibly polluting the world with plastics and forever chemicals? What is the example I'm missing that counters those factual things??

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gahblahblah t1_j2uu6v8 wrote

My reference to counter examples is to your claims that:

  1. 'no one is doing anything' to which I only need to offer a single counter example to prove false, which I have already done in referencing the growth in solar planel investment and renweable energy dependence. But I can provide many examples - such as drone based forrest planting, where thousands of seedlings can be planted efficiently. Or the organisation Ocean Cleanup that is developing and using plastic trapping technology.

  2. your claim that people will not tolerate minor inconvenience- which I have already proved false by pointing out that there are whole cultures wearing face masks. But for which there are many examples- such as the proliferation of constructing wheelchair accessible ramps to buildings, the organisations that survive off donations, and the organisations that survive off people volunteering their time and energy - being examples of inclusivity, generosity and patience.

>You know we are linked to that chain and biodiversity loss

Yes, I know.

>irreversibly polluting the world

Your strong claim here is suspect, given that I have proved false many of your other claims and that you clearly exhibit fatalism. The burden of proof is upon you to show how you know it is literally impossible to succeed - not for me to show what the solutions are.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2v5n1i wrote

  1. What is being done faster than the rate of destruction? You have to stop the destruction first and we know this isn't happening. We can't even talk people into having less kids.

  2. Lol that some cultures can do things and others refuse. I think the reason is bare as to why global cooperation isn't going to happen just in your own point alone.

>Your strong claim here is suspect, given that I have proved false many of your other claims

Go do some basic Google research on forever chemicals and get back to me. I really think you just suffer from not knowing enough about how bad of a spot we are in.

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gahblahblah t1_j2vsact wrote

>1. What is being done faster than the rate of destruction?

This is just shifting the goal posts - as I knew you would. Before you claimed 'nothing is being done' but now you want me to prove that the rate at which things are being done is 'fast enough'. No. I already showed you were wrong. But in order to not change your fatalism in any way, and to never learn, all you need to do in these moments is to keep trying to pretend you were claiming something else and shift the goal post, shift the burden of proof, and never acknowledge that your hyper exaggerations are false. Never.

>2. Lol that some cultures can do things and others refuse.

But that is exactly enough to prove your initial claim was wrong - that it is 'impossible to motivate people to do the right thing if it slightly inconveniences them'. You are proven wrong. You laugh, because of course when this moment happens, you just attempt to shift the goal post again, or invent other new falsehoods and exaggerations. Anything to distract from acknowledging you were wrong.

I asked you to prove why progress is impossible, as the burden of proof is upon you. Your reply was 'look up forever chemicals'. Your answer is insufficient, but I won't expect a better response.

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NoTagBacks t1_j2xtcua wrote

Can I just say that your use of good philosophy here is just... chef's kiss. Masterful use of epistemology. You love to see it.

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oramirite t1_j2vhvap wrote

These were the actions of a select few people. The human race at large can absolutely outpace these efforts, that's not even up for debate. It's a cultural problem and as soon as we solve that, everything will improve. However, you seem to preclude this as being impossible, which is illogical given the numbers.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2vi4nn wrote

Let's talk numbers! How bout the numbers that suggest 70% of all wildlife has been eliminated since 1970. We definitely got this!! Just believe!!!

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oramirite t1_j2vm647 wrote

You seem to be operating under the guise of being more realistic, but you are in fact centralized in offering no-solution arguments. Even if there were no solution, it's illogical not to try one because we can't predict the future, and not trying is literally the only way to ENSURE failure. Trying is not the road to failure. Cynicism is a complete dive into voluntary failure.

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monkeylogic42 t1_j2vnop2 wrote

No, by all means come up with a solution... But recognize the solution isn't worth dick when we refuse to cease the behavior causing the problem. I'm not presenting solutions because I don't have any. Just stop making shit worse and eat the billionaires. That's about as good as we can do at this point. Stuff labeled forever chemicals are because they're here forever in this snow globe we inhabit. It's just a really big globe, so humanity has a hard time grasping how bad things really are, none the less effectively process more than one crisis at a time. The best I can do is not have kids and win the lottery to have enough money to even have my voice heard. Our optimistic 'make a difference' campaigns haven't made a dent yet. These do: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7856827/

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oramirite t1_j2vup1n wrote

Any billionaire and millionaire stopping these things would be offset by the efforts of the rest of us. They can inflict more damage. It's pretty simple, pretty obvious, and blaming the general public when a change in their behavior wouldn't matter compared to a change in behavior from a gigantic entity is absurd.

Your example is like ...... missing the point by a million miles.

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Emotional_Penalty t1_j2uqc4a wrote

In addition, its very clear that the economy will continue going to shit, causing further social distress and the war in Ukraine will only continue to escalate, potentially threatening the world with a global conflict using weapons of mass destruction. People have practically zero advocacy in these issues.

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oramirite t1_j2vhznr wrote

YOU have zero advocacy on these issues, and you're projecting it. I can't go a single day without seeing someone take concrete action related to that conflict. The reality that a world leader is the other side of that conflict, and that it's taking a little bit of time, doesn't mean progress is eternally impossible.

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