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Primary-Initiative52 t1_j2nrzf4 wrote

Reply to comment by ranker2241 in Teaching philosophy in a children’s prison has shown me the meaning of anger | The arguments against imprisoning children are well established, yet still we lock up those who have been failed by Va3Victis

That would be a prison for young offenders, ages 13 to 17. Below 13 they don't (usually) go to prison, and above 17 they are adults. The author of the article seems to be deliberately using the word "children" instead of "young offenders" to promote a sympathetic response.

I don't see the author offering alternatives here. The sad fact is that children can be MONSTROUSLY violent...and yes, usually because they are poor, disenfranchised, uneducated (let's all please remember that schools are not equipped to deal with violet/recalcitrant students...you've got to be able to get along and function in a reasonable manner to be successful in school.) I wish the author would spell out their alternatives...make it plain, what do you suggest?

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hydrOHxide t1_j2nufjl wrote

And showing monstrously violent children that it's OK to be monstrous to other people is going to help how?

Not sure about the author, but how about instead of setting up the prison system to be monstrous to people, take a look at some other countries? Whereas the anglosphere on both sides of the pond gets off on trying children as adults, other countries allow up to 21 year olds to be tried as juveniles if their maturation is clearly delayed. They also have supervised living arrangements for non-violent offenders etc.

If all you perceive is monsters, monsters is what you're going to get. If you waste any chance at them becoming competent citizens, don't blame them either. Cherrypicking extreme examples just to excuse not putting in even the slightest effort to turn their life around is no less monstrous.

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Atxscrew t1_j2qkewt wrote

Some countries don't have life imprisonment. So the function of them would be to rehabilitate because someday they will be out. Portugal is one such example. So is Norway. One quote I read is "We send murderers and rapists to prison to then be harmed by institutionalized violence (murder and rape factories, aka prisons) and hope that when they come home, they are 'reformed'" Edit: article about long sentences rethinking long prison sentences

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birdandsheep t1_j2twa6k wrote

I was incarcerated as a minor for being monstrously violent. I was smart enough to get my life together. I saw these kids first hand. Many of them will never be able to be fixed. They were born different or fucked up beyond repair. My personal history makes me extremely sympathetic to people who want forgiveness, but not everyone is capable of earning that forgiveness.

It is also patently untrue that children's prisons in the US don't make efforts to help the prisoners. Where I was, there was individual therapy twice a week and group therapy three or four days per week. Sometimes less, if the unit was dangerous. But the staff cared and put in effort to teach us life skills, emotional skills, etc. I got three different job certifications in prison that I was able to use to help me support myself in college.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm glad you're sympathetic and have a sense of outrage about the prison system, and I'm sure that there are places that care less about the kids than where I was. But I want to caution you against being too critical. Juvenile recidivism is a lot lower than adult recidivism. The system works better than you think.

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[deleted] t1_j2nsuc4 wrote

[deleted]

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spun2020 t1_j2qokin wrote

Its not about reform or pennince or justice. Our system justice system is designed for one purpose, profit. creating repeat customers is what they do, and they do it well. If they can put more kids in cuffs they would, A lifelong customer

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coyote-1 t1_j2o1r7k wrote

I love that, in an ideal world

However. The existence of these unfortunate young people tells us we do not live in an ideal world. And at a certain point, protecting society from these people has to trump their rehabilitation if it’s been demonstrated that such rehabilitation is not working in the present moment.

Crappy choices all around. No right answer.

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LazerPlatypus91 t1_j2p1fj1 wrote

In the real world, real prisons do real harm by real metrics. There is a right answer. Just about anyone can be fixed. Even then, even if we agree that some people are just hurricanes, we can allow them to live sequestered but humanely in comfort.

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Mustelafan t1_j2ptbaj wrote

What do we call a facility where these 'hurricanes' can be sequestered? 'Hurricane sequestration facility' seems a mouthful. Is there a shorter word we can use? Something about six letters long, perhaps?

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logan2043099 t1_j2p6jk4 wrote

What rehabilitation do you think is happening in prisons?

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coyote-1 t1_j2ppgzf wrote

None. But refer back to my “protecting society“ comment… if a 15 year old has demonstrated antisocial behavior that is clearly dangerous to others, along with an abject refusal to learn anything different, there has to be a point at which that 15 year old, at least in the present moment, has to be locked up to protect society. Dunno about you, but I’m not willing to sacrifice multiple lives in the slim hope of rehabbing that one life.

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logan2043099 t1_j2proz6 wrote

So fear then that's why you're okay with it. How many mass murdering teenagers do you think are locked up? You demand personal growth from these kids and then give them no chance at it by locking them up. Purely because you fear that they will commit more crime and have decided to write their entire life off as a failure because of it. You won't even give them the chance at rehabilitation since you admit that prison is not where you find it.

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coyote-1 t1_j2pyf9l wrote

Not ok with it. Just unclear on the possibilities here. I leave it to you to come up with an alternative that works, given what our society - and that includes you - is willing to devote in terms of human & financial resources.

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rottentomatopi t1_j2q178m wrote

The thing that is possible (because it has been done in other countries with success) is reform our prison system to actually BE rehabilitative. We already know how to make them so, but the prison industrial complex does not want that change to happen. Doesn’t mean we should give up fighting for reform now.

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PaxNova t1_j2pca28 wrote

Rehabilitation is unfortunately but one reason to send someone to prison. I firmly believe that everyone can be saved, but that doesn't mean we have the capability to save them right now. Sequestration is another reason for prison, since there's nothing we can do for them but stop them from harming others.

It feels like giving up, because it is, but sometimes there isn't a better option.

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LaskerEmanuel t1_j2p9fei wrote

You think that using the word “children” to refer to persons under 17 is unnatural but “young offender” is a perfect fit?

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Primary-Initiative52 t1_j2pgbm3 wrote

I never said that at all. I said the author "seems to be deliberately" using the word children instead of young offenders to promote a sympathetic response. I also never said that I thought this was a bad idea.

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LaskerEmanuel t1_j2ph76h wrote

As I look around at all of the alleged and potential young offenders in my life, including those alleged and potential young offenders in my family and the alleged and potential young offenders in my community on their way to and from their assigned government education/correction facility, I can’t help but hope that we some day have better language to refer to these “young offenders”.

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Mustelafan t1_j2psvey wrote

They're young and they broke the law, i.e. are offenders. What else should they be called?

I love how this subreddit of 'philosophers' gets offended by innocuous and reasonable questions and just silently downvotes instead of offering any serious answer.

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WelcomeToGlorantha t1_j2t4ozn wrote

They were convicted of breaking the law, although they might not have. One alternative term is incarcerated children.

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