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who519 t1_j1zkfg7 wrote

I think we have discovered the rules, or rule really. Greed is devastating. The attempt to escape the collective and excel at the expense of others leads to all sin. Greed, Lust, Sloth, Envy, Pride, Wrath and Gluttony are all just different shades of greed.

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carrottopguyy t1_j20hbzk wrote

If it were that simple, we would be in a better place by now. Everything you've said has already been articulated, and societies and movements have tried to live by those principles and failed time and time again to create life affirming communities.

The "collective" can be just as harmful as the individual, and it should not be unconditionally romanticized and glorified. People live emotionally repressed lives in collectivist, moralizing societies. This is part of Nietzsche's (imo, totally valid critique) critique of Christianity and Liberalism.

We need to move beyond objective, moralizing language and embrace vulnerability and subjectivity. I can feel the undertones of resentment in your comment - your righteousness and hatred is obvious.

People need to be able to embrace a bit of selfishness, egoism and expression. Muzzling human nature is a lost cause which leads to dysfunctional dystopias. We have to work with it, not against it. We need to build a culture in which it can find a healthy expression.

Unfortunately capitalism and Liberalism are the closest we have come to this, but they are still moralizing and soul crushing, placing a heavy burden of duty on people. They rely on ruthlessly shaming all burnout and failure and hiding suffering from public view.

But it is not greed which is the problem, it is the complex psychological trap of "duty" and a responsibility to participate in exploitative public life. All of morality is just a bunch of scared angry monkeys desperately trying to hold it all together and maintain their standard of living. That's all it is. But people objectivize it and internalize it, instead of unconditionally loving themselves like an animal should. It's really that simple - we should love ourselves in a totally selfish and uncomplicated way, like a cat would.

We don't need morality and shame - we have empathy. Obviously there are natural psychopaths, but if we really had our shit together they would not be a problem. It's only around 1% of people, they could be checked by a community of healthy people.

Hope you break out of the psychological prison of Christian morality.

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who519 t1_j20teoo wrote

The problem is for the most part those natural psychopaths are our ruling class because their behavior is rewarded by the current structure. To be clear I am not espousing communism, just a regulatory structure focused on rewarding our other virtues and penalizing greed. Heavily regulated capitalism is probably our only option at this point.

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Mylaur t1_j21hwe7 wrote

Empathy is not something everyone possess in sufficient amount, and it's very easy to lose. You're waging that empathy would be enough to prevent our deliberately selfish self under your ideal to not harm each other, and i think that would dangerously not work... Capitalism is basically what it is.

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carrottopguyy t1_j21wztr wrote

It's not as if what I'm advocating for could simply just pop into existence and become predominant. It would exist within the pre-existing context of the institutions we already have, and to me it is more of a cultural shift than a structural ideological one.

I think duty based ethical/moral systems are in practice passed down through generational trauma. It's all about what you need to do to get by, or live up to an ideal (an existing precedent.) Pretty common story across cultures:

Fail to live up to expectations -> shame and insecurity -> stress -> emotional outbursts and unhealthy coping -> rhetorical justification for unhealthy behavior, which even becomes common at the cultural level.

So the idea of right and wrong as it relates to our positive moral duties actually creates unhealthy behavior and the conditions for people to be more insecure and defensive and less empathetic. Helping people to realize this is therapeutic at the individual level. It helps people to love themselves as they are. So why not promote it at the familial level, or the communal level?

I am not against a punitive justice system which enforces common negative moral prohibitions, don't kill people, don't steal, etc. I am mainly focused on critiquing positive moral obligations which in practice restrict peoples freedom more than negative ones, because they obligate you to use large portions of your time in a certain way, and they create people with an insecure sense of self worth. Which does not help them function. And we learn this all from a very young age when we are taking all our cues from our parents.

Now, at the end of the day, even if we are not morally obligated to make a living, we would much rather be financially stable than financially insecure or homeless. But wouldn't you rather live in a family and culture which was not full of finger pointing, shame, and inability to cope with things like sickness, mental illness or bad fortune? Our ideas about "duty" break down in the face of the complexity of life, but that doesn't stop people from guilting and berating each other in moments of weakness and vulnerability.

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Mylaur t1_j2393ku wrote

I misread you the first time. Duty to me is not really something that is prevalent in our western culture, however, the culture of positive do's you call positive moral duties still revolves around what society deems valuable, which is money. So anything that gets money is seen as good, and the reverse bad, the rest, indifferent. And indeed, we learn this gradually, however there must be some overlap between our moral instincts such as doing good work, and preserving the status quo, avoiding conflicts.

I did not realize that positive moral obligations could also be self limiting, yet we are striving towards it, because they are what we should be or do, culturally.

One would require basically therapy on a global scale to change something.

But yes, I agree with your premises. I do think it is gradually shifting already, the last generation understands the flaws of our current system and strives to behave otherwise. One very obvious thing is the openness of discussion of mental illness and the struggles of life.

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Arow_Thway_ t1_j21ae5x wrote

How do you think a balanced culture between the individual and collective operate?

I appreciate your comment above.

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mrbiscuits24 t1_j209kdh wrote

Why is it a sin? By accentuating the concept of sin you are affirming the grand premise of judeo Christianity as a reality

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who519 t1_j20tuoz wrote

Sheesh, I meant sin as it relates to a it’s harm to society.

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idigclams t1_j21h0p3 wrote

Put more simply: antisocial behavior is the reason we can’t have a proper society. I can’t believe people are arguing against this!

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twistedtowel t1_j22fnrs wrote

That’s technically a little false though right? One could argue some people are greedy lustful etc etc and still get everything they want. How does that make this rule true?

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who519 t1_j24p37r wrote

The people they harm to get what they want has a negative impact on society as a whole. I am not talking about one person. One person can be greedy their entirely life and be rewarded the whole way, that is a problem for us as a whole.

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Rote515 t1_j22uxoj wrote

Sure, but who cares? You're missing the point of basically all nihilist based philosophy. Why is Greed bad, what is "bad" why do we care if we do something "bad". There is no "good" or "evil" is the fundamental argument of nihilists, sure it hurts someone, who cares? If that someone doesn't matter why do we care that it hurt someone. Why is causing pain "evil" why do we even care if it is "evil" you're 1 step to high on the ethics chain.

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who519 t1_j24qr42 wrote

Again I am just thinking of a "Sin" as something that negatively impacts our society, not as good or evil. Greed is very interesting in this regard. Greed started civilization. After all the first farmer was tired of gathering, and wanted a reliable source of food that would actually be end up being more than he needed. This success just reinforced the behavior and led the hypothetical farmer to seek power over others with his wealth and make them farm for him...and on and on and on, until we ended up where we are now. Was it wrong for the farmer to seek a reliable source of food? No, but it lead us to where we are now and if we continue on this trend, we will literally destroy our ecosystem completely.

So while not "wrong" ethically, greed inevitably leads to negative consequences for humanity. If our culture or biology had some brake on greed (some cultures have...see the Hawaiian tradition of Kapu (Taboo) as an example, maybe we would have slowed our technological advance, but prospered none the less. Instead we went with "quick and dirty" and it is now costing us dearly.

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Rote515 t1_j253ra2 wrote

That’s still missing the point of existentialist thought(which Camus falls under), Camus’s most important work on absurdism posits a singular question, “Should I kill myself” and argues that’s the most important philosophical question. Ethics in the face of this question are completely meaningless, as it’s a question that comes prior to questions of ethics.

Prospering, societal harm, destroying the ecosystem, none of that matters if we can’t answer the fundamental question of whether life is meaningless. That’s why greed doesn’t matter here and is irrelevant to absurdism. Negative consequences don’t matter if fundamentally life is meaningless. Absurdism is the seeking of meaning in a meaningless universe.

I have a feeling you’ve never read Camus? Or any Absurdist authors? Your making arguments, or observations that come after, which are essentially meaningless in the face of the Absurd condition.

Did you even read the article?

Edit: used a term incorrectly

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iwantabjthrowaway t1_j20nm12 wrote

Everybody stop philosophy - this guy figured it out.

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who519 t1_j20tjzb wrote

Ha! well, no but I do think most of our problems can be traced back to wanting more than we need.

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LeagueOfLegendsAcc t1_j21x8ce wrote

And that can be traced back to survival instincts. Storing extra food and supplies for the coming winter.

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who519 t1_j22dogs wrote

Lots of animals do that, I don't see any squirrels out there destroying the planet to maximize quarterly profits.

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LeagueOfLegendsAcc t1_j22f8ac wrote

You probably would if they evolved to the point of extensive tool use and creative abilities. And then gave them another half a million years.

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who519 t1_j24s28b wrote

Right, but then greed would still be the problem, it would just be squirrel greed instead. I am not saying that only human greed would be a problem.

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XiphosAletheria t1_j1zneaq wrote

But isn't the great insight of capitalism precisely that you can excel without it being at the expense of others? That wealth isn't just something static lying out there in the world, but something that can be grown? Which is why any first world nation is much wealthier now than they were 500 years ago.

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lilbluehair t1_j1zqfcl wrote

You're honestly saying that people profiting from others' labor aren't excelling at the expense of others?

There is no such thing as infinite growth. The wealth of first world nations absolutely came at the expense of the resources and labor of less advantaged nations.

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Filthy_Lucre36 t1_j1zuaco wrote

It's like people forgot history and how literally every single Empire that existed was built on the backs of an impoverished underclass or slaves.

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XiphosAletheria t1_j1zupow wrote

>You're honestly saying that people profiting from others' labor aren't excelling at the expense of others?

Outside of slave societies, this never happens. Why would someone labor to profit another when they could just profit themselves? People sometimes sell their labor to others, as one component of what that other person is making, but there the trades are generally fair.

>There is no such thing as infinite growth. The wealth of first world nations absolutely came at the expense of the resources and labor of less advantaged nations.

Nonsense. There's more to wealth than just resources. If you don't believe me, just smash up your phone and try to trade it for an unbroken one - after all, it's the same amount of plastic and metal either way.

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Funoichi t1_j20531c wrote

>Why would someone labor to profit another?

>This never happens

It happens every single day. It’s called work. What benefit do I get if a store or a business succeeds? Nothing. It’s the submission of one’s own goals before that of another. It’s exploitative because the employee receives less value than is produced by their labor. People work because they have to, it’s a captive audience and there is nothing fair about these arrangements.

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XiphosAletheria t1_j206vkk wrote

>It happens every single day. It’s called work. What benefit do I get if a store or a business succeeds?

You continue to have an organization you can sell your labor to. If it fails, you won't, and then you starve.

> It’s the submission of one’s own goals before that of another. It’s exploitative because the employee receives less value than is produced by their labor.

No, they recieve exactly the value of their labor. If you were receiving less than the value of your labor, you would sell it to someone else, instead.

>People work because they have to, it’s a captive audience and there is nothing fair about these arrangements.

Yes, right, you have to work to eat, because food needs to be produced before it can be consumed, and you have to work to get shelter, because houses have to be built before they can be lived in, and you have to work to clothe yourself, because clothes have to be manufactured before they can be worn. But this isn't some terrible unfairness that only occurs under capitalism. That is the nature of reality itself, and would remain true under any economic system.

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Funoichi t1_j209jyz wrote

Incorrect. Workers have no attachment to a particular workplace and always have the option of working somewhere else. The success or failure of any particular business is immaterial to the workers.

If I work at a bookstore and sell 10 $10 books, I do not receive $100. That’s what it means for a worker to receive the full value of the work they do. What would the business owner get under this arrangement, don’t know, the value of whatever books they sell also.

Business owners are not entitled to one cent of the value their employees produce. Maybe take 10 percent off for upkeep of the business, other than that, the workers should be getting the same value as they produce.

There’s many other proposed economic systems. Food being produced == food having a cost. You left that part out. X being produced is the part that has to do with the nature of reality. X having a monetary cost is artificial.

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Ibbot t1_j20gabf wrote

In the world where you sell ten $10 books and get paid, $100, does the store not pay the people who clean, stock the shelves, make sure the registers work, etc? Or is it just required to operate at a massive loss? What about other factors of production, like utilities?

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Funoichi t1_j20iqao wrote

Certainly I don’t want employers earning a profit off of the work of their employees. Certainly no more than they are making at maximum.

The value that each person contributes would have to be tallied and paid in full. It was a simplistic example.

Someone receives the books and someone buys new ones, I guess you have to chop the value of each book sold into pieces.

That’s kind of a coop model. Then if you want to go full socialism, the workers own the means of production so there’s no books to buy or utilities to pay.

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ammonium_bot t1_j26k8bq wrote

> and payed in

Did you mean to say "paid"?
Explanation: Payed means to seal something with wax, while paid means to give money.
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VitriolicViolet t1_j2210t9 wrote

operate at a loss? no the boss just pays themself the same amount as they pay their employees.

its how i run my business, im not doing any extra work and im not the one risking homelessness so why i do i deserve all the rewards and the employees a pittance?

ever heard of Mondragon? largest worker coop is fucking Huawei, you dont need a traditional top-down ruled corporate structure to succeed, at all (as much as the Americans here would like to claim otherwise, they routinely try to claim huawei isnt a worker owned coop cause 'muh ccp')

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Ibbot t1_j2219yd wrote

>operate at a loss? no the boss just pays themself the same amount as they pay their employees.

Their hypothetical involved every cent of revenue going to paying sales employees, leaving nothing left for paying other employees/expenses, let alone profits. As they acknowledged in their reply to me.

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XiphosAletheria t1_j20hmq2 wrote

>If I work at a bookstore and sell 10 $10 books, I do not receive $100. That’s what it means for a worker to receive the full value of the work they do. What would the business owner get under this arrangement, don’t know, the value of whatever books they sell also.

Then you have merely failed to understand the value of labor. The value of the labor of a clerk at a bookstore is not equal to value of the books she sells. The value of the book is precisely the sum of the values added by the author, the publisher, the distributors, the bookstore, and, yes, even the sales clerk. She gets compensated for her portion of that value.

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Funoichi t1_j20jwfa wrote

And the ceo of the company gets their share, right? No they get significantly more.

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who519 t1_j1zw72w wrote

Ok, so let's say your are google, and you create this wonderful thing that meets an unmet need and makes you a ton of money. Then others see they could do something similar to make their own market share...you know what happens next, google/apple/coca-cola/mcdonalds etc...etc...do everything they can to annihilate the competition. They don't want to share that market, they want to own that market. Literally anything that threatens their growth will be destroyed, including politicians.

Capitalism even if you ignore its abuse of workers has to provide Profit to shareholders. The only way to continually get profits is to cut the costs that actually make your product good, healthy, useful etc... etc... So the endgame for the consumer is a shittier more dangerous product. Greed runs it all into the ground eventually.

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XiphosAletheria t1_j1zyxe0 wrote

I mean, I'm not sure that your own examples don't disprove your point. McDonald's has plenty of competion - even within the fast food subset of restaurants. So does Coke. Even Google has a solid list of alternatives you can quickly find by using Google.

There are specific markets that tend towards natural monopolies, and these generally need some form of regulation to keep whatever company gets that monopoly in check. And of course individual actors within capitalism can behave badly, and need to be policed as humans always do. But there's a reason all the wealthiest countries use some version of regulated capitalism instead of some other system, and that's because once you understand that wealth is something to be produced and grown rather than a limited thing to be fought over, society gets a hell of a lot better.

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Garacious t1_j203t4f wrote

What i dont understand is, in order for you to produce wealth, someone else needs to lose that same amount of wealth. In that case how can wealth be something that can be produced infinitely?

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XiphosAletheria t1_j205nkd wrote

>What i dont understand is, in order for you to produce wealth, someone else needs to lose that same amount of wealth.

But that isn't true. If you sit down and write a good book, you have created something valuable that didn't exist before. The same is true if you program a videogame. Or write a hit song. And so on. There are plenty of ways to make society (and yourself) richer without someone else losing wealth. Likewise, the value of your phone lies less in the material resources that make it up and the labor put into to arranging those resources and more in the ingenuity of the idea behind how to arrange those resources. The same is true of most of the material goods we collectively would call "wealth".

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Garacious t1_j207ik6 wrote

But when you write a song or a movie, its not like it has some inherent value to it. You assign some value to it and if enough people agree on the value you placed, you can sell that thing to generate wealth. Just because we assigned some abstract value to these things, does not mean it creates wealth out of nowhere. If people dont agree on the value you placed, they will not give you their wealth and you will not be producing wealth.

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XiphosAletheria t1_j209a7h wrote

>But when you write a song or a movie, its not like it has some inherent value to it.

So? Nothing has inherent value to it. That doesn't mean you can't creste things people will find valuable.

>You assign some value to it and if enough people agree on the value you placed, you can sell that thing to generate wealth.

Yes, right.

>Just because we assigned some abstract value to these things, does not mean it creates wealth out of nowhere.

Of course it does. That is what all wealth is - stuff that people assigned an abstract value to. To create wealth you labor to create something or to do something that either a) at least a few people will put a high value on or b) that a lot of people will put a low value on.

>If people dont agree on the value you placed, they will not give you their wealth and you will not be producing wealth.

Sure, yes, of course. You might try to write a good book and produce crap. You might try to grow a crop of potatoes and overwater them so they all die. You might dig up a bunch of shiny rocks and discover no one wants them. You might compose a song and find no one wants to listen to it.

I said wealth can be produced and grown. I never said you personally had the skill and talent necessary to produce it, or that every effort to do so would succeed. Creating wealth is difficult. It has to be, because economic value is largely a function of scarcity.

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Garacious t1_j20absv wrote

What im trying to say is, wealth and value are seperate things. Of course wealth can be produced and grown, im not arguing that. But to produce that wealth, first someone needs to agree on the value you placed on something, and they need to actually give you their wealth in order for you to produce it. Can you answer me how can one generate wealth, or money, without someone else giving up their own wealth?

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XiphosAletheria t1_j20i9li wrote

>What im trying to say is, wealth and value are seperate things. Of course wealth can be produced and grown, im not arguing that. But to produce that wealth, first someone needs to agree on the value you placed on something, and they need to actually give you their wealth in order for you to produce it.

Why? You don't normally pay the author of a book you buy for the book before you buy it, do you?

>Can you answer me how can one generate wealth, or money, without someone else giving up their own wealth?

The same way one produces anything - through their own productive effort.

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Garacious t1_j20j91a wrote

Okay let me ask something else, what do you think wealth is? Cause i feel like we are talking about completely different things. When i say wealth, i mean the money (or the capital) you own and i think a lot of people will agree with me on that. Also for the book example, you know preordering is a thing right?

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XiphosAletheria t1_j20lufh wrote

Money isn't wealth - it's just a symbol for it, so you don't have to barter item for item. Wealth is what the money stands for - which is basically anything people are willing to trade you for.

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Garacious t1_j20n53r wrote

So... capital. Money is a symbol for capital. Its amazing how much of a selective reader you are. Also if you read your own comment a few more times you can see that trade is an important element of wealth. People trade their wealth with each other, so no one actually creates wealth out of thin air.

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VitriolicViolet t1_j221tw9 wrote

>I mean, I'm not sure that your own examples don't disprove your point. McDonald's has plenty of competion - even within the fast food subset of restaurants. So does Coke. Even Google has a solid list of alternatives you can quickly find by using Google.

you realise that half those examples own the competition right? the companies that own coke also own some 50% of global beverages (the other global player being the owners of suntory).

all markets tend toward monopoly, its the entire inevitable end point of capitalistic growth. all wealthy people want more wealth and the easiest way to get it is not innovation or competition but bribery, nepotism and corruption. as a class they bribe gov (hence why its so slow and inefficient, its paid to be) to give them access to captive markets and grant them regulatory capture to crush actual competition.

wealth is less produced and grown and more gamified and almost purely speculative (massive growth in the most captive markets ie food, housing, healthcare, energy and gov keeps letting the wealthy have more and more of it because both sides work for the investment class)

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CreaturesLieHere t1_j209z8o wrote

If you're not under 25, please go work at a restaurant for a couple months or something, this is seriously detached-from-reality thinking. I was in the same boat in my teens, so believe me I understand, but this is outright incorrect and not how capitalism actually works. I'm sure this is how it's described in Atlas Shrugged or whatever, but reality has been twisted by the elites and that's the simplest way I can put it without writing an essay in response.

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D_Welch t1_j1zply4 wrote

Very well said but Capitalism seems to have a dearth of fans round these parts.

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Funoichi t1_j2057vk wrote

People tend to disapprove of their own exploitation and they ought to.

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D_Welch t1_j20adtw wrote

What you call exploitation others call salvation. There has to be a system free of coercion where two or more people can freely exchange ideas and the fruits of their labour, and this I have always called Capitalism. Anything after that is something else. If you don't wish to call what I just described Capitalism, call it something else then and I shall agree, because it's that system that has brought us out of the dark ages and given us everything.

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Funoichi t1_j20jf1f wrote

Im sure the child workers in the vein of matchstick girl would be super enthusiastic that they had been saved from those awful dark ages.

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D_Welch t1_j21p5vj wrote

Probably actually, as will the hundreds of thousands that no longer die at birth or while giving birth.

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VitriolicViolet t1_j2225sj wrote

>If you don't wish to call what I just described Capitalism, call it something else then and I shall agree, because it's that system that has brought us out of the dark ages and given us everything.

how? it didnt reduce global poverty by 1 billion, fucking China did using the money we paid them.

did capitalism achieve that? if it did then it has also achieved the highest death toll of any system, belief or ideology in human history.

(using the highest possible figures ie including the nazis the ussr killed communism killed 100 million, capitalism has it beaten by several times over easily)

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