This is all theoretical. Time isn't even physical. Straight line curvature is a physical concept.

Time literally is physical, like space or light. We can verify that experimentally, and we have. I recommend reading up on relativity.

The idea of cyclical time is completely theoretical.

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Time is just our way of explaining what we observe, I believe that 'spacetime' is more like a fluid, when still, it's calm and ordered, but when something disturbs it, it leaves waves and ripples that continue on and on, even the way planets etc bend spacetime and the gravitational field is very similar to objects on and in water... (ever put a sphere in perfectly still water, and taken a close look?)

I'm not saying things are 'exactly' the same, but there is so much analogue it's hard for me to ignore!

I also don't believe it has a direction, it simply... is...

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More accurately, we can verify the accuracy of a model (general/special relativity) that treats it as physical. But even then, that model is incompatible with another successful model (QFT) which does not treat time as physical. So it continues to be a bit of an open question.

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You're right that general relativity and quantum mechanics aren't compatible at extremely high energies. We can verify that time is physical without using a model by making a physical experiment.

Consider a clock in space and a clock on earth. The clock on earth moves slower from the perspective of space, and the clock in space moves faster from the perspective of earth. That's a simple experiment that has been done plenty, and in fact, we have to account for that in satellites. This difference in time has clear physical features.

Time is physical. Our models about all areas of the universe, time and everything else, are not perfect. So maybe nothing is real and solipsism is the answer. Taking the existence of the physical universe for granted, time is physical, even if our models of it are not perfect.

Saying time is physical is still a model of sorts, and without an extraordinarily broad definition of physical I would not agree that the experiment outlined suggests physicality.

Have you studied physics for long?

The human experience of time is different in some sense though.

Our experience of the three space-like dimensions maps very readily to what we can observe. However, there is no immediately apparent reason why we should experience time as continuous "flow" in one direction only. We can see some properties of movement through time, such as an inexorable increase in entropy, but how this translates to our subjective experience of unidirectional time is, as far as I'm aware, unexplained.

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Depends on what you mean by studied. I’m not going for a degree in it or anything, but I have been following research and engaging with physics education for about 15 years. But what does that matter? Let’s say physicists routinely use this extra broad definition of physical- that’s great for them, but their definition does not define it for other disciplines. So here we are in a philosophy subreddit, where we can reasonably expect something more narrow, so as to not automatically apply to any observable.

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> So here we are in a philosophy subreddit, where we can reasonably expect something more narrow, so as to not automatically apply to any observable.

I ask about physics because physics is what this philosophical article is about. It is NOT overly narrow for this situation; the article is explicitly about the philosophy of time, and misunderstanding what time is (i.e. thinking it's some sort of construct and ignoring physical evidence of its features) makes it impossible to talk about this with any gravitas (ba dum tsss).

Is space physical? Electromagnetism? Your rationale applies to many things that it would be innacurate to say aren't physical, not just time.

If you haven't studied special and/or general relativity with some rigor, then you might not be qualified to answer questions about it.

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The entirety of everything that we perceive to exist all occurred instantaneously. Everything that was is and will be did not occur in time but all at once it is was and isnt.

There is a more difficult conversation about entropy that might address the "flowing" of time or the experience of it as sequential. I'm not super qualified to talk about that particular issue though.

My basic understanding is that time and entropy together (with the initial conditions of the universe, hot with low entropy) create a physical universe that includes causality. Then, consciousness relies on causality because it's about recieving information, processing that info, and acting. Then, we can consider natural selection, and think about how our consciousness appeared in this world in the first place.

Sorry that's not rigorous. I don't have a full answer. You bring up some good points. Still, I think entropy is related to the answer about time flow, and I think that how we experience time is a result of both its physical properties and our brains' physical properties.

Edit: the entropy, time, and big bang stuff is a Cosmology topic, btw, for whoever's into this sort of thing

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Time is both. An arrow and a circle. From the perspective of the present, time is an arrow moving forward. From a birds-eye view, time is a circle going around and around. From a holistic perspective, time is a spiral progressing ever forward in the same circular pattern but never retreading its path.

Time is change, nothing ever stays the same, everything always changes. To try to make time cyclical is to deny the nature of time and uncertainty. It is better to embrace change and uncertainty.

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I think you mean relative, not physical.

Time differs depending on gravity , gravity is determined by the amount of mass.

Therefore ...

The amount of time I spent with that insufferable overweight lady behind the counter at the DMV seemed like an eternity.

It’s all relative anyway.

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Time is a concept that helps humans mentally process the sequence of events they experience.

The author's entire rationale for time maybe being like a wheel, is that we have created arbitrary units of time according to our planet's orbital period? His summary could be paraphrased as, "Time being linear is depressing, so I would like to think it's not." What nonsense this is.

Eh. Physically it pretty much is an arrow. Things might feel the same but being literally the exact same doesn't seem supported. Even given infinite time that doesn't mean the exact same things will occur, there are after all an infinite amount of different possibilities, you won't exhaust them and need to repeat.

With respect to how we experience things you can certainly talk about repeating cycles, but a sine wave feels like a more appropriate comparison. A lot of this sameness seems subjective in nature, how we interpret events.

Yeah you're on the right track but have some misconceptions.

Time is a measurement of causality. Lightning strikes, then you hear thunder after a certain amount of time. So time definitely does have a single direction, otherwise things could happen before the event that caused it to happen. E.g. you hear thunder before you see the lightning strike, which is completely unphysical. It's kind of impossible to think of a universe if time could move both ways. What's also interesting to think about is without events that cause things to happen (if nothing happened), how can you measure time? Does it even exist then? This whole premise of causality, along with the discovery that light travels the same speed no matter how fast youre going, eventually led physicists to come up with special and general relativity.

What you're talking about with spacetime acting like fluid is just a property of waves in general. It isnt that spacetime is a fluid, it's that both spacetime and fluids (liquids, gasses, and plasma) are what physicists call "media" for waves to travel through. A wave is just engery moving through a medium. And youve even said it! The medium wants to stay still, and this restoring force is the whole reason why waves exist, why energy can travel. There are a bunch of media:

• Matter (solids and fluids) is the medium for sound (compression) waves or waves that move up and down like water (transverse).

• Electromagnetic field is the medium for light (photons).

• Spacetime is the medium for gravity. (General relativity implies gravity is the bending of spacetime).

• The Higgs field is the medium for the Higgs boson.

• Crystals (or solids in general) even have little waves traveling through their molecular bonds called phonons.

• Quantum Mechanics describes everything as a probability wave.

The list goes on and on. If you're interested, look up wave theory. Or if your more interested in how special/general relativity came about, look up the Michelson-Morley experiment (We used to think light traveled through a medium called the "ether". This experiment drove them mad when they couldn't prove it, but their findings were huge and led us down the path to our current understanding of spacetime).

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Thanks, I already knew all this, I was greatly over simplifying, And said that I think of spacetime more like a fluid, not saying it WAS.... :)

Already watch and read loads on everything you have said above...

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the author addresses your critique (i believe) at the end:

I was tempted to title this post “Time is a Wheel, not an Arrow”. We’re strongly biased towards the linear view, especially at the macro level. We see our lives and our civilization progressing toward some indeterminate end-state. I want to pull in the opposite direction.But both the linear and the cyclical view of time have merit.

and they go on to further their point, citing pros and cons of both thoughts, including that cyclical time can lead to "apathy, nihilism, and despair". furthermore:

*Properly balanced, the two viewpoints synthesize into a paradoxical but powerful state of mind: we can have ambition with equanimity, and progress with stability. Thankfully, the cyclic view is reemerging after centuries of obscurity.*I just hope we don’t overcorrect.

i feel this elucidation makes your comment unfair

edit: entirely unfair. i think you and the people upvoting you read the article with minimal patience or comprehension (if you even clicked on it - it's very clearly not a piece meant to persuade)

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this has big joanna newsom “divers” energy (whole album is about the concept of time and whether or not it’s cyclical in nature)

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None of those things are evidence or arguments for time being cyclical.

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Or just like for a car to move forward, it must depend on spinning wheels and the cycles of the engine. Can't have a hyperbola without the torus. Ones and Zeroes, we need them both.

The concern is more linguistics in this case. Yes, the article brings in physics but it’s not about physics, per se. Therein lies the challenge.

there's no argument for or against either. it's about how cultures or societies view themselves and their existence in the world under one or the other school of thought. the author is observing what they feel is a resurgence of the cyclical view, but then as i noted, says they hope a balance is maintained. because of the benefits of both.

i felt that was fairly straightforward, maybe you read too fast or gave up under some false assumptions?

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Time is a wheel/time is an arrow/time is created by the faculty of intuitive perception (Schopenhauer)

I read the blog post, as well as investigated some of the ideas & terms in the comments. I offer another view of time which is well known & discussed since philosophy was first conceived.

Following Kant, Schopenhauer argued (something like this) that time, space, & causality are organizing attributes living entities use to perceive - that is, create the externality about us. Schopenhauer predated evolution, but it can be argued convincingly that perception is an evolved characteristic and living things have a wide variation in perceptual ability.

Call it Will (Schopenhauer), or god, or collective unconscious (Jung), or élan (Bergson) or psyche (Kastrup) or just common sense (Glasersfeld): there is no way to go around, dismiss, or explain away that our experience, including thoughts, emotions, bodily functions, is based on our perceptual apparatus.

Schopenhauer (Book 1 of The World as Will & Representation) page 1 "everything that exists for knowledge, & hence the whole of this world, is only object in relation to the subject, perception of the perceiver, in a word, representation."

Philosophy Now, Issue 134, page 8 "for the external world to become known to me, it must first be filtered through structures in my mind which arrange the raw data of my sense, so that the chaotic torrent of sensation that impacts my senses ends up as ordered chunks of experience & knowledge."

In short, our perceptual apparatus (as with all living things) can only deliver to us "what the apparatus at our disposal can do or mediate." Bryan Magee, The Tristan Chord, p 153.

Schopenhauer considers "Time" as one of the perceptual/reasoning attributes used to organize & conceptualize our interactions with our perceptions. Physicalism or materialism or scientism may dispute this by pointing out the advancements of science & technology. One could counter this point by considering that perceptual consistencies for all creatures is evolved & humanity is simply discovering the consistencies of our perceptual "world."

I always thought the time is a wheel metaphor is intended to marry the concepts of cyclical vs linear time. A wheel is a device that translates circular motion to linear motion. The way I see this playing out in a hypothetical universe is that things play out repetitively like a circle, except each circular revolution in time brings the universe forward in some conceptual way, closer even if imperceptibly towards some genuine end state.

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