Submitted by Gmroo t3_zdfsu4 in philosophy
Reply to comment by Mustelafan in The hard problem of metaphysics: figuring out if other phenomena exist in our universe that like consciousness require we bear a specific metaphysical relation to them - i.e. you can't know of consciousness without being conscious. by Gmroo
>Because a zombie has no qualia and I know I do have qualia because I'm currently and constantly directly experiencing qualia.
The zombie believes he has qualia.
>According to whom?
According to the premise of the experiment.
>? That's not part of the thought experiment and I see no logical reason to assume that.
The logical reason is that there is another universe exactly like this one which means the zombies are exactly like humans but lack qualia. This means they believe they have qualia and say that they have qualia when you ask them.
>Then I'm afraid I must conclude you yourself are a p-zombie :)
Go right ahead. I am sure it fits in your worldview already.
>Neural correlates of consciousness are physical and can be measured but consciousness (qualia) itself is not and cannot.
Of course it can. We can literally record you experiencing the redness of red.
>But this is a whole argument by itself. I'd recommend reading Chalmer's The Conscious Mind for a better understanding.
I have. He makes no sense. Like you he keeps making insane and completely unsubstantiated claims like "qualia can't be detected" when we can clearly detect you experiencing qualia.
>The article in the post we're arguing in the comments section of should answer this question.
It doesn't. An answer isn't just something somebody says. There has to be some sort of evidence.
>What these things do is convert that information into a form we can access.
Exactly.
>But we can never experience the quale of bat echolocation, or bird magnetoreception, or shark electroreception, et cetera.
why are you so sure of that. According to you qualia is unmeasurable, undetectable, completely subjective, and is not material. Given all of that how can you be sure I am not experiencing the qualia of echolocation?
>'Philosophy' has never been properly defined either, but here we are.
Arguing about the definition of words nobody can agree with. That's philosophy in a nutshell.
>The logical reason is that there is another universe exactly like this one which means the zombies are exactly like humans but lack qualia. This means they believe they have qualia and say that they have qualia when you ask them.
I suppose that's fair enough, but personally I'd say there's a tacit assumption in any thought experiment that causality is 'reset' and the hypothetical world plays out according to whatever has been changed in the thought experiment to begin with. In which case these p-zombies wouldn't believe they have qualia.
>Of course it can. We can literally record you experiencing the redness of red.
>I have. He makes no sense. Like you he keeps making insane and completely unsubstantiated claims like "qualia can't be detected" when we can clearly detect you experiencing qualia.
What magical machine is this that records my qualia? You can measure my brain activity all you want but that's not the same thing. Neural correlates of consciousness are not consciousness.
The insanity here is the inability to understand what I'm talking about when I refer to the most fundamental aspect of human existence. My only options are to believe that physicalism has resulted in some sort of collective self-denying delusion (a la Daniel Dennett) or that philosophical zombies actually exist, are among us, and are debating philosophy of mind with us. I can't tell which one I prefer.
>Given all of that how can you be sure I am not experiencing the qualia of echolocation?
Because I'm sure you would've told me by now if you were lmao
>Arguing about the definition of words nobody can agree with. That's philosophy in a nutshell.
Truer words have never been spoken. Anyway it's far past my bedtime, gotta call it a night/morning. Have a good one 🤙
>I suppose that's fair enough, but personally I'd say there's a tacit assumption in any thought experiment that causality is 'reset' and the hypothetical world plays out according to whatever has been changed in the thought experiment to begin with. In which case these p-zombies wouldn't believe they have qualia.
But that makes no sense. That premise begs the question and can't possibly lead to any kind of rational conclusion.
>What magical machine is this that records my qualia?
There are several variety of brain scanning devices. Surely you know this.
> You can measure my brain activity all you want but that's not the same thing.
Why not? They are exactly the same thing. You can even watch it and say to yourself "so that's what me experiencing the redness of red looks like".
> Neural correlates of consciousness are not consciousness.
That seems like an outrageous claim and will need to be backed up by some evidence.
>The insanity here is the inability to understand what I'm talking about when I refer to the most fundamental aspect of human existence.
I suspect this is because you yourself don't really know and can't put it into precise terms. You are holding on to a vague notion so it's no possible for you to explain it to anybody with clarity.
> My only options are to believe that physicalism has resulted in some sort of collective self-denying delusion (a la Daniel Dennett) or that philosophical zombies actually exist, are among us, and are debating philosophy of mind with us. I can't tell which one I prefer.
I think if you tried hard enough you'd be able to come up other options.
>Because I'm sure you would've told me by now if you were lmao
What makes you so sure of that?
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