Comments
CanterburyTerrier t1_iyiaeet wrote
There's a really interesting book which delves into the "roots" of Christmas called The Battle for Christmas by Nissenbaum. It doesn't focus on the ancient or Medieval origins of Christmas, but the evolution of Christmas as a thing that was wholly torn apart during the rise of Puritanism. Ancient customs associated with harvest and winter larders were wiped away by a Christian ethic of temperance. Basically, they wanted drudgery without punctuation and saw winter celebrations as drunken revelry... which it was, but they didn't see the need for it.
If you want to kind of get an inkling of those older traditions, you can kind of hear it in albums like The Christmas Revels: In Celebration of the Winter Solstice.
I say, kind of hear, because a lot of those traditions were wiped away and we have to reassemble them. It's not exactly the same, but it's kind of like Pacific Islanders having to reassemble their language and traditions after the colonial period tried to scour it away.
Anyway, the book explains how the Christmas we know today... the Victorian, Dickensian Christmas was, oddly enough, a product of Dickens coming to America and his readings of Washington Irving (who also kind of invented Halloween). The traditions in a Christmas Carol aren't invested in Christian imagery. They are invested in a type of pagan tradition that Dickens assembled or invented.
So, in the end, the hard to define element of Christmas might actually owe a lot to the murky nature of the traditions themselves.
Edit: Also, Christ's birthday was one of the few events which didn't seem to have an associated date which lined up with the Jewish calendar and Holidays so it was easy to assign to the Solstice celebrations.
ThalesBakunin t1_iyiaomb wrote
Thanks for the recommendation of literature. I love that kind of stuff as I'm a bit of an anthropology/history buff.
In my house we wish each other happy Saturnalia.
CanterburyTerrier t1_iyic2p2 wrote
You'd love the Christmas Revels album. "The boars head in hand bear I, bedecked with sage and rosemary!"
The book goes into a lot of class warfare and how Christmas was traditionally a time when peasants would remind land holders of their tenuous hold on power.
TheWorstMasterChief t1_iyj0g90 wrote
>Revels
Bro. I'm IN the Christmas Revels. It's going on now. Go buy tickets.
CanterburyTerrier t1_iyj8ay4 wrote
I think there are a bunch of chapters, right? Used to go to one in Oakland. Thanks for keeping old traditions going!
TheWorstMasterChief t1_iyk9brw wrote
Yes. 12 I think.
e_sandrs t1_iyip74g wrote
I'm not going to remember enough details, but I recall reading somewhere that some "Early Christian Scholars" decided at one point that Jesus must have been both conceived and killed on the same day of "Easter" (not even touching the origins of that name here) for....reasons. Add 9 months to a Spring conception and you end up with a birthday around the Winter Solstice. See? It All Makes Sense Like It Should.
akebonobambusa t1_iyk7nfb wrote
Jesus conception is the Annunciation and it's on March 25. The conception and birth of Jesus are based in the spring equinox and the winter solstice. Easter is based on a lunar calendar which is why it moves around.
The equinox and the beginning of spring sound similar but they most certainly are not. The beginning of Spring is the arrival of new life. The equinox is the turning.
Easter is also tied to Passover so it has another facet.
ph30nix01 t1_iyj409o wrote
To be honest I always felt Christians tainted things with their shit. Every concept not of themselves they destroy.
GoSeeCal_Spot t1_iyjwwb7 wrote
not just a feeling, but factually correct as well.
mytwocentsshowmanyss t1_iyjkre0 wrote
Why was the christian ethic against winter larders? Did they just go hungry?
CanterburyTerrier t1_iyjxg16 wrote
They were fine with a surplus of food being stored. They didn't like the revelry associated with winter excess. Supposedly, winter was a time of low work requirements in agriculture. The crops were brought in and you had a good understanding of how much food you had to last you through the winter. A dependable excess meant you could party. Slaughter was traditionally done when temperatures dropped to preserve meat. You either ate it or salted it. Eating fresh meat was preferred. Beer and wine were also supposedly ready in December, though I don't know why?
December was a time to gorge.
Puritans did not like the excess and drunken revelry as a custom.
AUserNeedsAName t1_iykb9lt wrote
>Beer and wine were also supposedly ready in December, though I don't know why?
I'm just a homebrewer, but I may have an (uneducated) answer to that. It takes ales about 3-4 weeks to ferment at 70F (slower in the cold), and lagers 4-8 weeks at 50F. This USDA source shows European spring barley harvests as ending in late September/October, about 8-12 weeks before the winter solstice/Christmas. This PDF from the University of Vermont shows the 2019 hops harvest peaking in late September, which is pretty typical. Sierra Nevada releases their Fresh Hop IPA each December to maximize hop freshness and showcase the year's harvest, for instance.
Figure a few weeks to get your other harvested goods stored before starting your brew and the timeframe lines up perfectly. You can also hold beer longer to let it mellow (Oktoberfest lagers are called Märzens because you brew them in March and let them sit), especially at low temperatures, so mid-to-late December should be the start of a peak beer season that dwindles slowly into the spring, at which point your winter barley is ready for harvest and a new brewing period begins.
EDIT: I forgot those timeframes are with modern commercial yeasts. If you factor in wild or other pre-modern fermentation methods, the fermentation time increases and no fudge factor or waiting period would be required.
CanterburyTerrier t1_iykmc9s wrote
Wow! Thanks for the downlow!
kaustickelpie t1_iyhvu2k wrote
Lol I'm an atheist who fucking loves Christmas too and ironically my favorite thing to collect are nativity scenes. Fucking love those things and I have no good reason why lol
Jaivanh t1_iyi7t9f wrote
I am also an atheist, here is the nativity scene my father in law made in the early 70s he passed it on to us as it is too difficult for him to set up now.
kaustickelpie t1_iyigolg wrote
Omg that's gorgeous! And looks really good for its age!
Jaivanh t1_iyjd1g5 wrote
Yes, we are pleased with how it's aging.
Fever_Raygun t1_iyi0cm7 wrote
Do you just like dioramas in general?
kaustickelpie t1_iyi1lfi wrote
Not particularly? I mean, I was raised Christian so maybe it's just strong nostalgia, it's hard to say. But man I love my nativity scenes lol I'm trying to convince my husband to let me get the huge plastic light up figures for the lawn lol
coolthesejets t1_iyjmbsm wrote
You made me realize I've been having dissonance with my atheism and love of Christmas iconography.
kaustickelpie t1_iyjusgx wrote
Oh? Yeah I've always found it strange... I love gospel music and have a strange fascination with finding nuns adorable lol not in a fetish way but more awww. Even though I know that most people's real life interactions with them haven't been pleasant. My husband was raised Catholic and everything about it fascinates me. I went to a funeral once (someone I didn't know) and just had to contain my excitement over seeing a catholic church. It's so fucking weird lol
GoSeeCal_Spot t1_iyjx58i wrote
Most Christmas iconography is older then Christianity.
Celebration of the dark ending is as old as agriculture.
As is kiling people on a cross.
OrsonWellesghost t1_iyjkqfb wrote
Nativity crèches are even better when you realize they were started as a tradition by St Francis of Assisi, who was a brilliant communicator and educator. (Maybe someone can correct me)
[deleted] t1_iyi3t5u wrote
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connectimagine t1_iykyv4y wrote
We would get along well 💜💖
kaustickelpie t1_iylum9v wrote
Lol good to hear I'm not alone in my weird tastes!
FabulouslyFrantic t1_iyj4373 wrote
The feeling of warmth and togetherness gets me.
The aesthetic of trees, lights, holly, and snow is pure bliss.
I know another year is over and I have spring to look forward to.
BING MF CROSBY (and I grew up in Romania, was born at the end of communism) and his fantastic voice.
And more recently I've turned to celebrating in a more pagan way - by hosting dinners on the Solstice.
I just love Christmas, I can't wait to put up my tree! (Putting it up early isn't really a thing here, I might set it up around the 20th, for reference).
Duckboy_Flaccidpus t1_iyk4vvl wrote
More seasonally related but I've come to really not enjoy peak Summer's as much. The 10 year old in me is bitching and moaning but they truly aren't enjoyable, Fall is the best what with the temperment climate and leave colors but probably some of the most blissful days happen in the winter with soft snow covered ground, clear skies with sunshine, no wind and maybe a balmy 20F. That's when you go for a nature hike or run outside or ice fish.
FabulouslyFrantic t1_iylhgat wrote
Summer is overrated by far.
The best times of year are September, October and May.
Summer is for hiding from the sun and trying to not get sweat-glued to your chair.
cmilliorn t1_iyi14n9 wrote
One of us, one of us!
Hagisman t1_iyjxhod wrote
At one point there were Atheist Christmas Carol groups. Don’t know if they still exist.
They were covered in US news pre COVID.
ThalesBakunin t1_iyk3fqi wrote
Well I can't pretty much guarantee you that they are not any in my state.
But my wife would absolutely love that. She misses choir so much. Because of religious saturation freaking much any singing group is affiliated with a church. We have looked and there are no secular choirs around. Much less atheist.
She joined one that said it wasn't but then they prayed like 4 times during the first rehearsal and she bounced.
O-hmmm t1_iyi1e70 wrote
I used to try too hard to have that "special" Christmas but was always disappointed and it did not live up to my expectations. The people I wanted to share in my special Christmas had their own agendas and the commercialism became intolerant.
Nowadays I have no expectations and the family made the wise decision long ago to stop with the gift giving except for the kids so no pressures either. A much, much better holiday now.
TotalCuntrol t1_iyi4qua wrote
God I wish this could be my family. The gift giving... is so needless. I'm a grown ass man and most things I do want I buy for myself, or are too expensive.
Actually-Yo-Momma t1_iyicsq0 wrote
“Thanks aunt Sally for these uhh wrong sized t shirts. I definitely won’t be throwing these in the trash”
TotalCuntrol t1_iyir72k wrote
My mom basically asks us to give her a list of gift ideas. I guess that's the silver lining, because I get stuff I actually asked for. Still, there's no magic in it. And coming up with gift ideas is part of the challenge
GoSeeCal_Spot t1_iyjxjh1 wrote
Maybe if you stopped your entrench capitalist's attitude and focus on the act of giving, you would have a better time.
put o the wrong size shirt and dance with your aunt far a moment.
Or focus on the material. You do you.
SirDiego t1_iyj13ac wrote
I'm the same, everything I want I just get myself. There are a few people (mostly my mom) who can get me gifts I wouldn't think of but actually want and I appreciate that.
But for the past few years I've told everyone don't get me anything and if you really really want to anyway, donate to a charity from a list of ones that I like. Makes me feel good, makes them feel good, and satisfies the "I paid money for something for you" quota for the Christmas season.
Smart_Royal_6455 t1_iyioyur wrote
My family and I made the switch years ago to no gifts for the adults. Instead we pool our money and do Christmas for a family who can't afford it. It's much more fulfilling than giving/getting a bunch of often useless shit.
katorias t1_iyihn8t wrote
Gift giving still works if you just chill the fuck out and keep casual, it’s the weird expectation that’s placed on people that ruins it.
CutleryOfDoom t1_iyjls69 wrote
We do small gifts between immediate family. So while we don’t have huge Christmases like we used to as kids, we do still do stockings filled with favorite candies, gift cards, and smaller gifts like fuzzy socks, maybe jewelry or just smaller things we think the other person will like. We also do a shopping day where we set an allotted amount and then go buy stuff for each other. So mom and dad buy for each other, and my sister and I buy for each other. We do end up spending a small amount of money on gifts, but it’s become a really fun way to hang out with either mom or dad depending on the year, and then we have stuff to open on Christmas Day that we genuinely have no idea what it is. For me, that special feeling of Christmas as a kid was based on the absolute coolness of the presents my parents would get us and being able to play all day. But now that I’m older, I really just appreciate getting to spend time with everybody. To me, that’s what makes it special. We have lots of little traditions that we do all based around that idea. Plus I love giving gifts so it is genuinely fun for me to try and surprise my sister with stuff she’ll like.
DrenkBolij t1_iykpf5i wrote
The "War on Christmas" was started by the advertisers. Gift-giving was rarely a big deal. In A Christmas Carol, Scrooge sends a turkey to the Cratchits. That's it. In the "White Christmas" song, it's "Please have snow, and mistletoe, and presents on the tree" because the presents were relatively small items.
The psychotic greed-fest that lasts for months that Christmas has turned into isn't any fun for anyone except for the people who profit off everyone else's misery, as they spend like crazy to live up to impossible expectations.
GGATHELMIL t1_iylin6p wrote
Literally this. I grew up in a house where Christmas was the thing. We would start in November finish by Thanksgiving. Enjoy it for December and pack it by my birthday in January.
To say my parents had an obsession with Christmas is an understatement. And as a kid I enjoyed the fruits of my parents labor. It was truly magical. But then I became a teen. And part of the magic was now my job. Hanging lights. Spending hours after school setting up the tree and going through and putting wreaths up in the windows. Or lining the stairway with garland and red bells.
And I quickly learned I didn't love Christmas as much as my parents. It's to much work. So I abandoned it. It kind of broke my mother's heart but it just wasn't something I wanted to devote the time to.
Now that I'm an adult I have exactly what I'm willing to put into it. I have 5 strands of prelit garland inside the house. 4 in the living room and one in the kitchen. A Christmas tree. A ceramic tree with colored lights probably 18 inches tall. And three strands of lights on the gutters outside.
Takes a day to put up and less to take down.
Gift giving is gone except for kids. My nephew's will get a few things. But me and my siblings aren't trading anything. And I might buy my dad a small thing this year but it's less of a Xmas gift and more of a thing I'd buy him just cuz.
The only other person I buy gifts for is my fiance.
ammonium_bot t1_iytezxt wrote
> it's to much work.
Did you mean to say "too much"?
Explanation: No explanation available.
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes.
^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions.
^^Github
Shitforbrains666 t1_iyhar4y wrote
Not religious, but love Christmas. It’s definitely a real feeling. Makes me fel nostalgic, cozy and friendly. And the smell of hyacinth really triggers childhood memories, ah something about smells..
CryingIrishChef t1_iyi3hy6 wrote
The smells for sure, but I’m sure we all have that ONE song that takes us back to the mystery, fragility and peacefulness of Christmas that we felt when we were 6. For me it’s John Denver and the Muppet’s A Baby Just Like You. That flute hook at the beginning still breaks my heart. It’s hard to describe.
Edit: word
D_Ron_ZA t1_iyk3j89 wrote
My father passed away when I was 9 and he would go all out for Christmas, always making it so special. I don't even know if it was his favourite song but Little Drummer Boy always reminds me of him and takes me back to my childhood.
1Fresh_Water t1_iyjt1jo wrote
Mine is Elvis' cover of Walkin in a Winter Wonderland. My dad used to sing along so ridiculously my mom would be on the floor laughing
rades_ t1_iykrr3r wrote
Basically the whole Nutcracker soundtrack for me.
FabulouslyFrantic t1_iyj4l38 wrote
Hyacinths at Christmas? Might I ask whereabouts in the world you are? Here in Romania they're a decidedly spring thing.
We have a celebration here (and in Bulgaria, though I don't know their exact customs) on Mach 1st. Mărțișor. It's to celebrate the end of winter and women get gifted hyacynths, or snowdrops, alongside a two-strand silk thread of white and red. Winter and Life.
Shitforbrains666 t1_iylrir6 wrote
I’m in Sweden! That’s interesting, here you can barely buy hyacinths before mid november, unless there are different seasonal variants? I don’t really know, but the ones they sell for christmas smell lovely!
Royal_Gas_3627 t1_izfhybu wrote
and the lights!
my eyeballs are attracted to glitter
wintrysilence t1_iyhh0v3 wrote
Anyone else really don't like Christmas? I actually feel worse around that season.
pinupgal t1_iyhiuib wrote
I find that as I age, each year brings on new elements of wistfulness and inherent sadness of a lost past that can’t be recreated.
Digerati808 t1_iylajv0 wrote
You can recreate this experience through your children or grandchildren.
pinupgal t1_iylzaob wrote
True, but I’m at the gap in between kids and grandkids: Empty-nester.
[deleted] t1_iyhs1bt wrote
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pinupgal t1_iyhtkpo wrote
No, did you?
earthtochas3 t1_iyhwlob wrote
No, my girlfriend did and I thought it might be one of those Baader-Meinhof type things!
haveanotherdrinkray_ t1_iyhtybm wrote
You def did
terepede t1_iyhvth0 wrote
Is wistful a weird word or something?
earthtochas3 t1_iyhwopr wrote
Not at all! Just haven't seen it written out in months probably and now I've seen it like three times in the past 24 hours.
I_AM_NOT_LIL_NAS_X t1_iyirzn2 wrote
it's a pretty wistful time of year tbf
terepede t1_iyi2r9h wrote
Ah fair enough haha
frecklesmcnerdy t1_iyhiev3 wrote
Same for me. I used to love Christmas as a kid but now there just seems to be a lot of pressure to live up to those memories and it’s always a let down.
haveanotherdrinkray_ t1_iyhtzy2 wrote
Who's pressuring you?
Carma-X t1_iyii0ab wrote
I think that's obvious
haveanotherdrinkray_ t1_iyjmni8 wrote
Yeah, him/her self
pixievixie t1_iyjfzcd wrote
I feel like especially for moms. Like once we realized who REALLY made all the magic, and now it's US that has to make the magic, well, it's less magical (obviously not all moms, etc)
Savior_Of_Anarchy t1_iyicrlb wrote
I've felt that way throughout my 20s. But this year will be my son's second Christmas, first one he'll actually open presents and I'm hella excited.
Sapphire_Sky_ t1_iyhkfcp wrote
I've renounced Christmas and am now just looking forward to the winter solstice because that's when the days get longer again and it's just more meaningful to me. It also feels more intimate because it's something I do for myself. Obviously Christmas still happens around me but I put myself in the role of a spectator outside of all the craziness.
Bjd1207 t1_iyi4kce wrote
What does that look like functionally? Like do you still get invited to parties and stuff? Do you go?
Sapphire_Sky_ t1_iylpb7a wrote
I do spend Christmas eve with my family but because that day is no longer the big event that the whole month of december has been leading up to, I don't feel the pressure of it all having to go smoothly. If it gets too much, I'll excuse myself and head home. I know this won't work for everyone; my family is small and we live close together. But just this simple change in my mindset has helped me personally reduce the anxiety that the holidays would give me every year.
PapayaSecret1794 t1_iyhp319 wrote
I’m with you, friend. Just lost my mom last month and this will be my first Christmas without her. Thanksgiving sucked. Getting used to the feeling.
FatassTitePants t1_iyhxfwp wrote
For me, it's bittersweet but in a good way. I'm likely past the midpoint of my life and I do feel nostalgic but sad about how much loss I've experienced simply as a product of getting older and " things just aren't the same anymore."
On the other hand, I see it as my duty to make Christmas as fun and magical for my kids and other younger people, and that brings me a tremendous sense of joy and purpose this time of year.
kiby-kiby t1_iyiolqk wrote
Yup. I grew up around alcoholics and drugs addicts so that sort of spoiled everything about christmas for me. Not to mention I'm non religious. Just hearing the music is enough to activate my fight or flight instinct lol.
epik t1_iyhncgq wrote
used to love it, music included, but now i know we can never escape the same old christmas songs on loop for the rest of our lives. it fills me with dread the entire year.
d-cent t1_iyhonjc wrote
I was going to say there are lots of people that have bad experiences from around the holidays. Every year the holidays bring up bad memories of that previous trauma. It goes both ways.
lucyfurever t1_iyinthg wrote
I fucking hate Christmas, it fills me with dread. The holidays were really tough when I was a kid, since day 1. im not going to trauma dump here, but it’s relevant to share I had a religious cult parent who believed Christmas is sinful, and drunk parent that had custody of me at holidays. When I was finally an adult, I wanted to finally have the warm fuzzy holiday like in the movies. I had dreamed of it my whole life. So I really tried for a couple decades to have the Christmas magic. I had a few nice times, but it was empty of any meaning or purpose and ended up t times feeling was lonelier than doing nothing. I eventually gave up because in the end, it’s bullshit Christian holiday that won’t fix your fucked up family. And it’s a total resource suck, you will never be able to throw enough money at it.
FranksRedWorkAccount t1_iyjb595 wrote
Christmas is fucking awful and I hate christmas people.
shadow_pico t1_iyi8308 wrote
I dread having to shop for gifts.
NeuHundred t1_iyle4jk wrote
Same! I hate it so fuckin' much, I never have any idea what to give anyone else, and whatever I do find never feels like enough. I'm one of those people who holds real high standards for myself and I never reach them, so it's pretty depressing. My ever-elusive goal is to get it all done by Thanksgiving so I can just take the month off and actually enjoy the Christmas season.
shadow_pico t1_iyloo30 wrote
This sounds like me 100%. LOL. I always try to buy gifts early. But the problem with that is forgetting you bought it or hid it so well that I can't find it. LOL.
NeuHundred t1_iynb30d wrote
That happens to me, too!
VitriolicViolet t1_iyt5lsf wrote
just dont? i havent bought gifts for anyone in 15 years, you make shit if you have to or just give people plants.
shadow_pico t1_iyzjuk4 wrote
No no. That's so lazy. I like to at least put some thought into gifts that I give loved ones.
Dreamcatcher993 t1_iyisvc1 wrote
Me.And used to love it lol.Apart from learning it's same as saturnalia, I lost everyone I cared and became immune to any mental mass activity.
puppykawa t1_iyixrzs wrote
yep. worst holiday/season by far. sucks for people who don’t dig capitalism (spend all your money on gifts or no one will like you!), don’t have a good family, and it makes seasonal depression literally so much worse because you get gaslighted for not being in the holiday spirit lmao. actually, bethany, the sun won’t come out anymore, my family hates me, i’m broke, and now it’s fucking SNOWING
VitriolicViolet t1_iyt5goj wrote
yep.
an entire season dedicated to pretending like people care for each other. other then the family unit most people have little to no actual care for those outside that group.
for all the talk of sharing and togetherness go ask them if they would pay more taxes to help the homeless.
the spirit of christmas is mass virtue signalling by a population that spends most of its time shitting on those below them.
trvpcasper t1_iyhmo8x wrote
i used to live it but now everything changed
ExHaltzorocoaster t1_iyhz2jl wrote
They have Christmas songs for that too!
The_10th_Woman t1_iyi3mli wrote
With respect to attributing the modern conceptualisation of Santa to Coca Cola: Coca Cola based their advertising on the characterisation of Santa from ‘Account of a visit from St Nicholas’ aka ‘Twas the night before Christmas’ published in 1822 purportedly by Clement Clarke Moore https://www.coca-cola.co.uk/marketing/christmas/coca-cola-and-father-christmas--the-sundblom-santa-story With respect to the red coat, in 1881 the political cartoonist Thomas Nast used the poem as inspiration for his depiction of Santa which features a red coat and even before that a stained glass portrait of St Nicholas from 1340-50 showed him wearing a red coat https://www.thecollector.com/thomas-nast-illustrator-creator-of-santa-claus/ . Coca cola’s Santa-themed artwork was started in 1931.
One of the things that I enjoy about Christmas is that this is mythology in practice. The concept may have evolved from real people (different ones depending upon the culture) but I find it impressive that a collection of communities come together to perpetuate a mythological explanation for their actions. They surrender the acknowledgment of their actions (giving children presents) in favour of a socially protected belief - one which can lead to condemnation if you fail to accord by the largely unspoken rule that parents are the ones who should tell their children when they feel it is the right time. However, there is no universally accepted age that children should be ‘let in’ on this adult collusion.
When I was young I memorised the poem ‘a visit from St Nick’ and there are some features that epitomise the modern conceptualisation of Santa as a positive being who brings joy into our lives. “His eyes - how they twinkled, his dimples, how merry…… His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow……. He had a broad face and a little round belly, that shook when he laughed, like a bowl full of jelly. He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf, and I laughed when I saw him, in spite of myself. A wink of his eye and a twist of his head, soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread.” This jolly, friendly and harmless characterisation of Santa is likely necessary given his association with children.
I find it interesting that this mythological conceptualisation is not about self-generated happiness where you are an active participant in creating your joy (beyond inviting Santa to your home using what could be termed ‘rites’ such as leaving out food/drink for Santa etc) but primarily it is an external agent entering one’s life (symbolically entering into a private, safe space - your home) to provide you with happiness (or at least capitalist symbols of it via gifts). There is also often some risk of punishment/exclusion from this beneficent gift-giving if children have behaved badly.
The symbolic significance of many actions at Christmas is also featured in the poem: “The stockings were hung by the chimney with care” - the ‘with care’ shows that the action itself is not the most significant part, the reverence with which it is enacted is - to me this is emblematic of placing totems upon an altar and I have to say that I decorate my home with that same care. Each decoration has its place and after the holiday they will all be packed up carefully to preserve them for the next year.
I also find that there is a sense that this is a time when people actively seek out the construction of good memories (via gatherings, cooking ‘traditional’ foods). Interestingly, despite growing up with the belief that such memories are generated as a result of a magical being, people do take responsibility for creating their own positive Christmas - possibly as a result of recognising the effort that their parents had to go to so that they, as children, could enjoy Christmas.
People engage in reciprocal social behaviours (exchanging gifts/cards, wishing each other well for the season) which may act as a repeated (year after year) reinforcement of social bonds. Often I have contact with people at Christmas that I don’t see/hear from at any other point in the year and information regarding their lives is shared through cards/newsletters. Therefore, Christmas may act to help enable the formation, maintenance and potential revitalisation of friendships.
I would love to say that people are nicer, or more generous, at Christmas as that has always been my perception but I cannot find any statistics on that so perhaps I simply look at the world through an altered viewpoint at Christmas as a result of my own choices to immerse myself in Christmas themed uplifting activities and entertainment media - you could say that I wear ‘Christmas tinted glasses’ for a month each year.
sidianmsjones t1_iyj4e4b wrote
I'm huge into Personal Mythology, which includes talking a lot about cultural and modern mythology. Loving your breakdown of it. Been thinking of doing some casual recorded conversations (podcast) about this kind of thing and having guests come chat.
Clementea t1_iyhfg21 wrote
As someone who does not live in the west: Interesting
[deleted] t1_iyi34gz wrote
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Dejan05 t1_iyhwsmv wrote
What that's a thing? All I feel on Christmas is dread, just another reminder of the cyclic nature of life and its finite nature, but maybe I'm just weird lol
cbessette t1_iyii2jz wrote
I started feeling that way some years ago, then I started thinking of Christmas more in the traditional pagan sense that it's a celebration that falls right around the Winter solstice here in the Northern hemisphere.
I see it as celebrations, feasts, music, and general merriment to dispel the darkness and cold. For me it's not about Santa or Jesus, it's just an excuse to celebrate that after the 21st, the days start getting longer instead of shorter- the cycle is turning back to the light.
I have my own little solo party by myself on Solstice eve where I build a bonfire outside, have some mixed drinks and just sit, me and the dog, watching the fire and enjoying the outdoors.
Green_Karma t1_iyimysm wrote
It's tradition so of course it's a thing.
I think it's funny people view it as maybe religious. It's not anymore. Maybe it once was but not in a time anyone alive has seen. It's a commercial holiday made to get us to spend to keep the system going with a strong fourth quarter.
Tradition keeps a country strong. We see each other as one of our own if we share the same traditions and practices.
So ya of course it's a thing. Would probably be much better if it didn't start in May like it does now. It's too much. But other than that I like the Halloween into Thanksgiving into Christmas when it's done separately and not all as Christmas afterthoughts.
Actually-Yo-Momma t1_iyid6hi wrote
I only really enjoy summer. I almost treat my life as a big checklist lately and it’s depressing me
May/June/July: amazing
August: oh shoot summer is almost over
September: ugh Halloween is near
Nov: oh guess it’s Christmas season now
Jan: ugh no more real time off until May
Dejan05 t1_iyif9jj wrote
Tbh I prefer spring cause summer is too hot for me but yeah from September to march at least are kinda meh
beingforelorn t1_iyi22h5 wrote
You're not weird for feeling this way, at least your comment didn't get assaulted by the lovers of Christmas.
RedOrchestra137 t1_iyika7z wrote
a reminder of the cyclic and finite nature of life, definitely. it's also in the contrast between people in your immediate environment's joy, and the reality remaining as apathetic and dull as ever, that your own sense of meaninglessness can become more intense than any other time of year.
CoysCircleJerk t1_iyjouct wrote
Interesting, I’ve always felt the opposite.
I lived in San Francisco my first year and a half out of college, and while I like a lot of things about the city, I really hated the weather. It was essentially the same year round. Without a seasonal reference point, the days/weeks/months/seasons bled into one another and honestly made me a bit depressed - I felt like I was living the same day over and over for a year and a half (at least mon->fri that is). I grew up in Boston though which has very distinct seasons, so might have just been unfamiliar.
I’m not a huge Christmas person, but always liked how it spices up December every year with something different than the norm.
Implement-True t1_iyigenv wrote
Working retail for many years has come to make me loathe this time of year. It’s all a reminder of greed and consumerism. Stores start playing Christmas music early af to “get people in the holiday spirit” or in other words get people in the buying spirit. Same with the holiday ads. All businesses LOVE 4th quarter cause they make so much, while the average Christmas shopper goes into debt for the holiday.
I only celebrate it because it’s a tradition in my family and it excites my 7 yr old. If it weren’t for them, I’d ignore the whole ordeal as much as possible…in my own home that is. But I don’t go all out by no means.
GoSeeCal_Spot t1_iyjwsev wrote
What a terrible paper. So many unchallenged assumptions.
starfyredragon t1_iyicfi0 wrote
I'm on the "bah humbug" side of Christmas, honestly. I go along with it because most my family & friends, but honestly, I find it exhausting and obnoxious.
RedOrchestra137 t1_iyij2io wrote
grug see dark, grug feel cold, grug make light and warm
Chuckles52 t1_iyhyq0o wrote
There is a physical connection. At some level we are aware that the Sun is returning (based on memory of experience). More than the fairly recent Christian meaning, it is tied to eons of animal experience in the northern hemisphere.
Trips-Over-Tail t1_iyirsp7 wrote
My Christmas feeling is dread and anxiety and existential ennui.
gears19925 t1_iyjug1h wrote
I'm an atheist who loves Christmas... I love giving gifts. Seeing joy on someone's face. I've figured out ways to trick people into unintentionally telling me what they want for Xmas, and it's great. My favorite gifts to give are ones that solve problems or annoyances in their day to day. Sometimes, these are the cheapest or silliest solutions to stuff you don't usually think you can find out there.
When I was small, we didn't have money for stuff like this. My family gave me gifts, but as soon as I was old enough to grasp money and what our situation was. I no longer asked for things. Much to my families dismay. Even today, I don't like getting gifts. I dont like when people spend money on me. But I am a giant hypocrite because I love doing it lol.
When people ask me, as an atheist and new dad. What am I going to tell my kid about Santa. I plan to be truthful when they are old enough to fully ask the direct serious question. I am going to tell them that Santa is an embodiment of the idea of giving and being generous and kind. Giving while expecting nothing in return. Simply because you can. I think this is a good lesson to teach and learn. We need more kindness and generosity in the world.
Influence_X t1_iykb7n1 wrote
I fucking hate Christmas
goodfella311 t1_iyl90e5 wrote
I find joy in the Christmas season. The cold air, the music, apple cider. I have both fond and dreadful memories of a life rapidly passing by. Enjoy all of it while you can :) Merry Christmas!
[deleted] t1_iyhk8iw wrote
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ThingConsistent5886 t1_iyiyo2x wrote
Anyone need a snapping turtle
ph30nix01 t1_iyj4jt1 wrote
Ya know how I can simplify this for everyone?
We are the random numbers that spawn inside PI when exposed to various views but we still exist outside pie we just are not distinguishable to outside observers. 😉
Spectre1-4 t1_iyk0xcr wrote
Eh holidays have lost their magic ever since my parents got divorced.
Here’s hoping I’ll have a family one day and get to create that magic again
thelingeringlead t1_iykhyam wrote
I feel it, especially the last few years. As i cling to anything to associate positively with my aging parents, christmas has become another excuse to spend as much time with them as possible. The stuff just hits different when you stop thinking about how it annoys you. I've been getting the vibe hard as fuck, and i'm so happy about it.
connectimagine t1_iykyekd wrote
I didn’t grow up with Christmas except for more repenting for being alive. I wish I knew what this felt like… I want to feel the magic, and the sentiment so much.
kateinoly t1_iykytay wrote
20dollarportraits t1_iyl25l9 wrote
Ok maybe I’m an idiot, but the way this article was written felt very pseudo-intellectual to me. I could only get through half it. I don’t actually think I’d disagree with their overall points but they took forever to get there.
[deleted] t1_iylfsg6 wrote
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BLU3SKU1L t1_iylmmp9 wrote
See I feel the same way about Halloween. Where I'm from, we have more communal Halloween time/ harvest parties and the whole community participates in Trick-or-Treating. there are ads and events and people talk about the scary movies they're marathoning. It feels very communal, Maybe even more so than Christmas, which for us is mostly family centered. It's a feeling that I just catch every year.
VitriolicViolet t1_iyt53an wrote
what christmas feeling?
its just a day like any other, one that society has decided should be used to buy loads of shit.
just because people pretend its actually about sharing, caring and family doesnt mean it isnt actually just a corporate holiday designed to churn sales.
the whole togetherness and niceness shit is literally put on and espoused by people who dont even try live like it (watch those same people when you talk about funding welfare, not so keen on sharing now are they?) all to feel good about themselves (virtue signalling is off the charts this time of year).
how many help the homeless? most just blow 1000s of crap they toss out a few months later.
there is nothing profound about christmas other than how profoundly deluded we are as a society.
DrenkBolij t1_iykq4ma wrote
TV shows do special episodes about the "true meaning of Christmas" all the time, but by far the best of those that I've ever seen is from an episode of Community, "Abed's Uncontrollable Christmas":
> DUNCAN: Oh, brother. This is ridiculous. You are enabling a delusion. > > JEFF: The delusion you're trying to cure is called "Christmas," Duncan. > > ANNIE: It's the crazy notion that the longest, coldest, darkest nights can be the warmest and brightest. > > BRITTA: Yeah, and when we all agree to support each other in that insanity, something even crazier happens. > > ANNIE: It becomes true.
[deleted] t1_iyhosig wrote
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realchoice t1_iyhy7ux wrote
I'm German, and coca-cola had nothing to do it with our Christmas celebrations or our nostalgia. Infact I grew up ok. A house where we didn't watch television and were expressly forbidden from drinking soft drinks.
NickBoston33 t1_iykvswp wrote
I truly believe the winter holidays are the most ‘warm’ and ‘appreciative’ because the latter half of the year = serotonin heavy, the summer = dopamine heavy.
Just like the day is for developing, the night for recovering, it seems that the summer is the same ‘inverse’ to the winter, a year seems to be a ‘day’ oscillating at a higher scale, carrying with it a relatively longer ‘release schedule’ from a single day.
Spitdinner t1_iyhg2ne wrote
Christmas is a phenomenon? They mean social construct, right?
Critya t1_iyhoyd6 wrote
Society is a social construct. That’s not even an argument.
ting_bu_dong t1_iyhrmih wrote
> Society is a social construct.
So: Society emerges from society; it continually recreates itself in society's image?
Edit: Not sure why this was downvoted. It's an honest question.
beingforelorn t1_iyi1wg7 wrote
I think they mean that society is a human construct and have confused the meaning of social construct. Lack of inquiry and precision in terminology is rather abundant here in this thread.
ting_bu_dong t1_iyi8gsx wrote
> Lack of inquiry and precision in terminology
How... unphilosophical.
Critya t1_iyibgxr wrote
Society is a construct built be the socialization of humans as a way to coexist. It is therefore a social construct. And I’m super bored with the “it’s a social construct” as if it settles the debate. Yes everything we do that is related to human civilization/socialization is related to “society” whether it’s tradition, culture, religion, communication, trade, even science.
All of it has been “constructed” as a way to progress us as a species past just animals roaming the savannah fucking, fighting, eating, and dying. So pointing out that something is a “social construct” as it relates to human socialization in the modern world is like pointing out that liquid water is wet or the sky is blue. So what? Partying is a social construct, graduation is a social construct, a promotion is a social construct, a marriage (in the romantic, not the religious sense) is a social construct.
Are you saying that by the very nature of something being a social construct, it is inherently bad? If so, that means that even the social constructs you enjoy must be destroyed and done away with. Or are you simply saying that a social construct is something that can be changed/removed? This argument would make a lot more sense, but that’s not how you presented it. And if you feel that a “social construct” is something that can be changed/removed and in this case you feel it should be, then present your argument on why that should be the case.
WaterIsWetBot t1_iyibmpb wrote
Water is actually not wet; It makes other materials/objects wet. Wetness is the state of a non-liquid when a liquid adheres to, and/or permeates its substance while maintaining chemically distinct structures. So if we say something is wet we mean the liquid is sticking to the object.
Every time I take a drink from a bottle, it keeps pouring back.
Must be spring water.
MichaelOraProNobis t1_iyia643 wrote
I think what is meant is that society forms through social interaction between people.
This shared interaction creates norms/rules/etc this becomes more solidified as time and interactions continue. Creating roughly what we would call a culture or society.
ting_bu_dong t1_iyianm7 wrote
So, I guess the answer would be yes? Society creates (and, thus, continually recreates) itself.
Edit: Or, maybe "reproduces" is a better way to phrase it than "recreates?"
It just got me thinking of Mark Fischer, is all.
https://youtu.be/JX-HfNIN-pc?t=171
2:51
while we used to recreate the
2:54
past in order to understand it or relive
2:57
it
2:57
today we recreate the past unconsciously
3:01
today's nostalgia is purely formal
3:04
today's nostalgia takes up the signs and
3:07
forms of yesterday's culture not in
3:10
tribute or as a critique but in the same
3:13
way that workers reproduce their own
3:16
exploitation every day in order to
3:18
survive we repeat the past simply
3:22
because these are the only forms that
3:24
seem remotely viable to consider
If society gives birth to itself, mimicking itself, then, society would be inherently conservative, right?
MichaelOraProNobis t1_iyieqwn wrote
I think I basically agree. But I would phrase it a little different. More like:
Society is the result of social interactions amongst a people who share a minimum of interconnected needs/interests. This result is a series of norms/rules about the structure/form of these interactions.
This social interaction structure changes as the nature of interactions change. It’s not so much a recreation as a process of adapting to accommodate new social variables.
I would agree that society is conservative in the sense that it tends towards a maintaining a cohesion among the people within it. But this is not always the case as social upheavals and revolutions happen. This usually seems to happen at time of social breakdowns where the expectations of the members are not met by the society.
Or something along those lines
ting_bu_dong t1_iyih5go wrote
> I would agree that society is conservative in the sense that it tends towards a maintaining a cohesion among the people within it. But this is not always the case as social upheavals and revolutions happen. This usually seems to happen at time of social breakdowns where the expectations of the members are not met by the society.
I sometimes wonder if Mark Fischer were still with us, what he would think, now that we are seeing more and more social upheaval. Would he be happy?
"Good! That means we're still actually capable of change! Not stuck in some listless cultural depression, looking to only recreate current forms!"
But, then, it seems that the antidote to depression is... anger. Hopefulness just leads to more depression. But anger? That changes things; and, thus, the society that is created and recreated tomorrow is changed.
Maybe revolution is necessary, not simply because of intolerable conditions, but, to end cultural stagnation.
Which... isn't really a comforting thought, though?
MichaelOraProNobis t1_iyim9o2 wrote
One thing I would say is that there has never been and never will be a time in which there isn’t change happening. It’s a matter of degree or severity. Only when a thing no longer exists can there no longer be change.
In that way our time is no different than any other time. Things go through phases of increased social change and times of lesser social change. Any perceived stagnation is just a matter of considering things on a different scale.
I disagree that hopefulness inevitably leads to depression. The lack of fulfilled expectations of that hopefulness turns to depression if our response to it is something along the lines of bitterness. That lack of fulfillment can be meant with something like acceptance instead which would minimize or prevent depression.
ting_bu_dong t1_iyiphma wrote
> One thing I would say is that there has never been and never will be a time in which there isn’t change happening. It’s a matter of degree or severity. Only when a thing no longer exists can there no longer be change.
Well, sure, there can be change. But if we take this seriously:
>we repeat the past simply because these are the only forms that seem remotely viable to consider
Then, there is no "real" (radical?) change; just a repetition of viable, acceptable forms. Society recreating itself as just the latest remake.
Though, I do kinda wonder if all the cultural sameness is simply driven by capitalism, not... organically, for lack of a better term? Hollywood makes endless remakes and superhero movies, for example, because they sell. And, so, it looks like that's all there is. But there is plenty more out there. It's just all the more out there isn't picked up; "the algorithm" doesn't boost it. Cool new stuff gets buried and goes unnoticed.
>That lack of fulfillment can be meant with something like acceptance instead which would minimize or prevent depression.
I'm reminded of The Myth of Sisyphus here. "Accept that reality is absurd slow moving."
MichaelOraProNobis t1_iyitych wrote
I would say that there is always change, not that there can be change. As long as there is motion there is change.
Not to be pedantic but it is impossible to repeat the past. We can experience things that bear a resemblance with the past. There can be behavioral patterns that act in a particular way that is shared among all humans but the manifestation of that behavior and the results of are unique to that point in time.
Remakes while I agree are a bit to repetitive or redundant for my liking, are new and different. Like Heraclitus said about not being able to step in the same river twice. The perceived lack of difference is dependent on the scale of the examination. The complaint of Sisyphean repetition can just speak to a jadedness or hedonistic dulling.
ting_bu_dong t1_iyiuzzh wrote
>Not to be pedantic but it is impossible to repeat the past.
Well, sure, that's why I framed it as "recreation" of the past (or maybe "reproduction").
Whatever you want to call the conservative force that keeps keeps society from radically changing.
MichaelOraProNobis t1_iyiwbbr wrote
What do you mean by “radically changing?”
Friendcherisher t1_iyhv419 wrote
If you put it that way, reality itself becomes a social construct if we follow Baudrillard's and Goffman's line of thinking.
Hedlundman t1_iyhxsxs wrote
Our reality is limited by our senses. It doesn't make it less real but perception is fun.
WoodenRain2987 t1_iyhzhh4 wrote
Watch out, you just pissed off the post-structuralists
JohannesdeStrepitu t1_iyi3yi9 wrote
Honestly, I think he just means 'phenomenon' in the sense that the Beatles were a phenomenon (i.e. a cultural phenomenon) but instead of giving an example of what he meant he just gives his own (questionable) analysis of what it is for something to be a cultural phenomenon.
I'm also confused why he'd say something isn't real just because it's a cultural phenomenon or even just because its a set of things held together by their cultural meaning. It would also make no sense to say it isn't real if what he meant is that it's a social construct but I digress.
ZeroFries t1_iyilmhy wrote
Phenomenon in that it has a phenomenal (consciously experienced) component. The Christmas spirit is a phenomenal gestalt similar to other complex emotions.
ghostgamer8 t1_iyj6ogc wrote
People need to stop saying “_____ is a society construct” when they don’t know what it means. Just because something is socially constructed doesn’t mean it’s meaningless. Literally just words people say these days to sound intelligent or interesting.
beingforelorn t1_iyhqd7w wrote
The only holiday celebrated for 1/6th of the YEAR...
I don't think profound is the right word to describe "the Christmas feeling," maybe oppressive, zealous, or wasteful may be better choices.
If you think of it in a biological sense, it is a set of traditions that has been artificially selected for for the past couple thousand years, intertwined with various cultures and traditions to be this way, its sad that we are captivated by such a machination.
Butterfly_853 t1_iyhv2j9 wrote
Christmas is about nostalgia and hope , not oppression or wastefulness . We use this period every year to celebrate the good experiences we’ve had with family and friends during what would ordinarily be a difficult time of year . When you think of Christmas you think of the magical feeling you had around it as a child , and that’s why it’s so nice as an adult to reminisce on that magic again . This is my take on Christmas anyway , that it’s a brilliant excuse to spend time with family and friends that we may not have seen much throughout the hustle and bustle of the year , and to make memories that aren’t clouded over .
beingforelorn t1_iyhw6qt wrote
The notion that the Christmas season as a whole is useful to offset the hardships that the year as a whole has held is likely close to the heart of Christmas, and the growth of the season to 2-3 months could be representative of the dismal and dreadful existences we have come to live in our day to day lives.
But why couple that with the religious theft and oppression that Christmas represents, why not dismiss Christmas and celebrate exactly what you said? That is the oppressive nature of Christmas, everyone is all too willing to ignore its ugliness and accept its boons.
Historically Christmas was made to pacify pagans through their indoctrination into Christianity, we have come to ignore the way Christmas has become what it is in a similar way to how white privilege is institutionalized in modern America. Ignorance is bliss I suppose, but such bliss is oppressive, zealous, and wasteful.
WhatsUpMyBrothers t1_iyhxo9v wrote
Christmas is awesome
beingforelorn t1_iyhy429 wrote
And in your eyes what makes Christmas awesome, engage in the philosophical inquiry of your feelings.
Do you feel its awesome because of your experiences or have you studied the history around Christmas and can include things that I may be ignorant of?
Simply saying its awesome doesn't provide anything for conversation, does it?
WhatsUpMyBrothers t1_iyioj82 wrote
History will show all that exists has a sorted past. You can be a complete Nihilist if you'd like and find no or negative meaning in everything. It's just a shit way to exist.
I find it enjoyable, beautiful, and love spending time with family in the environment Christmas creates.
Butterfly_853 t1_iym6n9k wrote
Yeah historically that is what Christmas meant , now Christmas is barely a religious holiday , millions of atheists and people of other religions celebrate it purely for the joyous and therapeutic atmosphere it brings .
EldritchAnimation t1_iyhty1o wrote
He hated Christmas, the whole Christmas season!
Now, please don’t ask why, no one quite knows the reason.
It could be his head wasn’t screwed on just right.
It could be, perhaps his shoes were too tight.
But I think that the most likely reason of all
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small
beingforelorn t1_iyhucpl wrote
Doesn't sound oppressive in the slightest, amazing point. Quote the grinch and prove my point further...
Lemmings to a cliff.
KingOfTheCaucasians t1_iyhw6ey wrote
Sorry you feel that way
beingforelorn t1_iyhwgd5 wrote
You shouldn't feel sorry, thats part of the oppressive nature of the season. We can all feel however we want about the season and none of those feelings are inherently wrong or sad or pitiful.
realchoice t1_iyhydtl wrote
Indeed, they are.
whiteboy_joe t1_iyjdt7e wrote
No, they aren't, and please explain why you believe they are.
beingforelorn t1_iyhyjj0 wrote
Indeed, what is?
realchoice t1_iyjjo6w wrote
Whatever feeling you have which I deem sad to me. It's not a math equation, it's a subjective feeling. You feeling bummed out is sad to me. That's all.
KingOfTheCaucasians t1_iyjuk0s wrote
I agree that everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings. I still feel sorry that you don't find joy in the holiday season though. I enjoy it because of the time I get to spend with my family. Not much more to it than that.
I wish you the best regardless! No hard feelings
ThalesBakunin t1_iyh69pw wrote
As an atheist who goes crazy for Christmas I must agree